All Natural conundrum

[Zany_in_CO]

@Todd Ziegler I have great respect for your integrity and your desire to be forthcoming. Your proposed slogan is perfect for that, and will probably spark conversations where you can explain that there are health risks to not using preservatives, which is why you have chosen to go the preservative route - and to be upfront about it so that folks can make their own decisions.

I agree whole heartedly.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I have created a foaming hand soap that is 99% all natural. The 1% that cannot be called natural is the preservative, liquid germall plus. For my formula I have a natural alternative which is Leucidal® SF Max. Any opinions are appreciated.

RE: LGP vs. Leucidal
Preservatives are always specific to the product. According to the following, if you want to preserve your foamer you don't have much choice. To be safe, I would use the Leucidal® SF Max
Note: LGP is a synthetic preservative and, as I mentioned earlier, it may have an undesirable effect on the product in the long run.

Source: Formulator Sample Shop

Formulators are often challenged with natural antimicrobials, as they are newer and do not necessarily behave like synthetic preservatives. Likewise, incorporating a natural antimicrobial into a formulation is not a matter of simply removing the synthetic preservative and adding the natural antimicrobial –formulation techniques need to be tailored to each natural antimicrobial to ensure the product is properly preserved.

Preservatives may have a broader effect on the finished product, altering aesthetics such as color, odor, and viscosity. When formulating with new antimicrobials, it is important to monitor the antimicrobial closely to control undesired aesthetic changes in the finished product.

An important factor to consider when formulating using most natural antimicrobials is broad‐ spectrum protection. It is not likely that a natural antimicrobial will exhibit the same level of broad‐spectrum protection as a synthetic preservative. For this reason, natural antimicrobials often need to be used in conjunction with one another to synergistically produce a broad‐spectrum self‐preserving system.

I think the best place to get an answer to your conundrum is to ask the supplier. Maybe I was correct in the first place... maybe you don't need a preservative at all.

 

[justjacqui]

If you are using surfactants I would probably go with something like 'made with naturally derived cleansing ingredients'.

Leucidal Liquid has a very bad reputation amongst professional cosmetic chemists / formulators for not being very effective and really needs to be combined with using a hurdle approach to preservation (including adding chelating agents, pH adjustment, glycols/diols to reduce water activity, reducing extracts etc) to have any chance of working.

There are also a few Ecocert approved preservatives that might be better than Leucidal but I would definitely recommend preservative testing for these also.

 

[AliOop]

If you are using surfactants I would probably go with something like 'made with naturally derived cleansing ingredients'.

Leucidal Liquid has a very bad reputation amongst professional cosmetic chemists / formulators for not being very effective and really needs to be combined with using a hurdle approach to preservation (including adding chelating agents, pH adjustment, glycols/diols to reduce water activity, reducing extracts etc) to have any chance of working.

There are also a few Ecocert approved preservatives that might be better than Leucidal but I would definitely recommend preservative testing for these also.

Wow, that is good to know. Based on the original recipe recommendation, I have been using Leucidal in my hyaluronic acid facial serum. I only make it for myself, but I still want the preservative to work! Time for some research.

 

[earlene]

I was unaware of there being natural surfactants? I thought all of them were considering synthetics?

Aside from the ones in our very own bodies? (lungs, amniotic fluid, etc.)
Some reference material on naturally occurring surfactants:

https://thethingswellmake.com/beginners-guide-natural-surfactants/https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280639965_A_Review_on_Natural_Surfactantshttps://chemistscorner.com/natural-surfactants-for-cosmetic-products/https://www.ncbi.nlm.n ih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2954283/
https://formulabotanica.com/natural-surfactants/

My understanding is that "soap" is defined on this forum as lye-based soap without syndets.

Although, I do agree with that statement, in the US, the word 'soap' is commonly used to describe anything used for cleaning (not just "True Soap") and even the FDA recognizes this.

"If the product contains synthetic detergents, it’s a cosmetic, not a soap. You still can use the word “soap” on the label. " ( FDA link for this quotation.)

 

[Todd Ziegler]

If you are using surfactants I would probably go with something like 'made with naturally derived cleansing ingredients'.

Leucidal Liquid has a very bad reputation amongst professional cosmetic chemists / formulators for not being very effective and really needs to be combined with using a hurdle approach to preservation (including adding chelating agents, pH adjustment, glycols/diols to reduce water activity, reducing extracts etc) to have any chance of working.

There are also a few Ecocert approved preservatives that might be better than Leucidal but I would definitely recommend preservative testing for these also.

"made with naturally derived cleansing ingredients'."
I like that terminology too. I believe that I will try to work in both phrases if I can. I also think that I will change the name to "foaming hand cleanser". Since I am making and selling both kinds, it might make for a better distinction between the two. Also I would like to play a part in helping stop the use of the word soap, when it should be called a cleanser. I can make a sign that says "Do you know the difference between soap and cleanser?". It would be a good way to start a discussion with a customer about my products and how they differ from off the shelf cleaners.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Oh geez. You're right. My bad. I had no idea. Thank you for mentioning that.

That's what through me off.

FYI: On this forum, "all natural" means lye-based soap made from scratch vs. syndets. So now I think we need a new, more specific definition for your products. In the future, you might mention that your all natural stuff is made with ingredients from The Formulators Sample Shop. That way we will know what you're talking about and how to best help you.
...or, as in my case, stay out of the discussion all together.

No problem buddy .

My understanding is that "soap" is defined on this forum as lye-based soap without syndets.

The term "all natural" is something else altogether, and ostensibly refers to the source of the ingredients, as well as their level of processing. As Carolyn noted in her earlier post, anyone who uses lab-produced lye probably should not refer to their soap as "all natural."

Then again, it's not like olive oil, coconut oil or any other soaping oil or EO drips directly out of the tree, seed, or plant into the oil container, either. Since they all require some form of processing, are they really "natural"?

Unfortunately, we have no standard definition for what level of processing crosses the line from "natural" into "synthetic." That's why I don't fuss over it much, and don't really argue with anyone who wants to call their product "natural." Far be it from me to impose my definition on someone else who feels differently about what is safe for them.

@Todd Ziegler I have great respect for your integrity and your desire to be forthcoming. Your proposed slogan is perfect for that, and will probably spark conversations where you can explain that there are health risks to not using preservatives, which is why you have chosen to go the preservative route - and to be upfront about it so that folks can make their own decisions.

Thanks. " a lie can win a sprint but it takes the truth to win a marathon" my grandma Ziegler always had a saying for any situation. Some of them were rated PG-13 lol.

 

[AliOop]

Although, I do agree with that statement, in the US, the word 'soap' is commonly used to describe anything used for cleaning (not just "True Soap") and even the FDA recognizes this.

Agreed. The point was being made as to the generally accepted terms on this forum, as opposed to "out there."

@Todd Ziegler you said, "my grandma Ziegler always had a saying for any situation. Some of them were rated PG-13 lol." My late father-in-law was the same; a few of my favorite (family-friendly) sayings of his were:

All their taste is in their mouth.

When you lie down with the dogs, you get up with fleas.

... and my very favorite (in reference to a relationship doomed to fail):

Can't have two ticks and no dog.

 

[jcandleattic]

My late father-in-law was the same; a few of my (family-friendly) sayings of his were:

I have quite a few from my dad, but "family-friendly" they are not. LOL

 

[KimW]

All their taste is in their mouth.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Agreed. The point was being made as to the generally accepted terms on this forum, as opposed to "out there."

@Todd Ziegler you said, "my grandma Ziegler always had a saying for any situation. Some of them were rated PG-13 lol." My late father-in-law was the same; a few of my favorite (family-friendly) sayings of his were:

All their taste is in their mouth.

When you lie down with the dogs, you get up with fleas.

... and my very favorite (in reference to a relationship doomed to fail):

Can't have two ticks and no dog.

Her favorite phrase no matter if it was good or bad news was "sh*t fire and save matches"