A few ponderings!

[deebop]

Hi all you smart people!
I've had a few things on my mind after dealing with some major and minor soap making annoyances lately! I'm pretty sure I just got too excited about things and tried to catapault into realms I had no business even creeping into just yet but I'm trying to tell myself that it's all part of the learning process.

First off I kinda wanna ask what are your favorite, tried and true oil Combos? I was having good luck with coconut oil, olive and vegetable shortening but recently started adding butters and canola (it's cheap!) and my batches have been behaving a bit differently in the sense that they don't set up as fast I try to unmold and on occasion things are still sticky after a few days. This leads me to want to try CPOP more often but then I worry that will rule out goats milk as I don't enjoy the darker color aspect of gelled milk. Anyway I'm not thinking of giving up on certain oils and/or butters just yet but I wanted to hear if anyone else maybe knew something about canola specifically that would help clarify? And in general what your fave recipes are?!

On to the next questions.. I watched several youtubers doing fascinating hot process batches and couldn't wait to give it a try. I read somewhere that I should hold out some of the liquid till after the cook. That ended disasterously because by the time I added the rest of the liquid (goats milk and yogurt) the batch had already hardened so much that despite my best efforts to stick blend in the room temp liquids, I ended up slopping the whole mess into molds and having my neice dub the batch "potato salad". :headbanging: What a horrific nightmare! Was a shame too, because we went through the trouble of tapping poppy seeds out of pods I'd saved from last summer and it was going to be a nice lemongrass poppy yogurt type thing. It's now on my porch in a bag with another yucky Rebatch because I'm too angry to look at it lol. I guess the question is, and it seems I've since read this elsewhere too, was it wrong to hold out some of the liquid till the end? Seems to me people are ADDING liquid in the begining if anything? I'm figuring that must be why everything seized. I definitely won't be trying hot process again until I am just going to to a water batch (the main reason I was doing it anyway was for the color popping possibilities! And the more instant gratification aspect!) I know I won't give up but it sure is frustrating to have something beautiful in your mind and come up with "potato salad" lol!

Anyway last but not least of my many ponderings this morning... I used a tenfold orange EO from brambleberry to make my first soap. That was about a month or 2 ago. I know orange doesn't last so I went heavy with it and it still completely faded away. It's a small goats milk batch that mostly gelled. I guess I can come to terms with it (it was the first soap I ever made and it smelled HEAVENLY for a while...) my question is, why did the vanilla cybilla fade as well? Is this known to happen? Does the orange take other scents away with it? I used the vanilla color stabilizer... does this fade the scent over time? Is there not a way for us creamsicle lovers to succeed!? I have just broken down and ordered an orange frangrance oil from brambleberry instead of the EO. Think I'll have any more luck with that? Tell me there is a way!!?? I also now own their grapefruit EO... will that scent disappear as well?! I'll happily use it all in body butters if that's the case but I surely don't want to waste anymore citrus in soap if there are no tricks to make em stick! Thanks everyone!

 

[shunt2011]

The most common recommendation for a recipe is Lard/Palm, CO, Olive and Castor. You don't need fancy oils/butters to make a good soap. I use milks in all my soaps and don't get anything but a pale off white color. I gell all my soaps. If I want something a bit whiter I just add a bit of TD.

Canola is prone to going bad fast and may cause DOS (Dark Orange Spots)=Rancid

For your HP experience, it sounds like you cooked it way too long/too high before adding in your extras or your're not starting out with enough liquid to begin with. I don't do a lot of HP but have never had it turn into Potato Salad.

Many citrus scents will fade. Doesn't matter if it's EO or FO. You need to mix them with other notes to make them stick. Lemongrass EO sticks like glue though. You can also try anchoring them with some Litsea Cubea EO.

 

[penelopejane]

Use the split method to make goats milk soap and CP it to gel.

Too much castor >5% will cause sticky soap.

It's oil you hold back till last in HP and maybe a spoon full of yoghurt. In actual fact you add a bit more water up front for HP soap.

Listen to shunt regarding scents ^^^^

 

[deebop]

Thank you! This is awesome feedback. People keep recommending lard but I have yet to find it or palm oil in the grocery stores or the wholesale club where I shop?! I'm totally open to that. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Same with castor oil, I got a small bottle from brambleberry but not sure where I would find that locally. Thank you so much for your advice, what you are saying definitely makes sense! Can anyone chime in that's used litsea cubea specifically with citrus and had any luck? Thanks all!

 

[Seawolfe]

I always use litsea with my orange mixes, but citruses will always fade. My advice is to be sure to use a good base note, and I find that mixing the EO's with clay helps (though others say it doesn't). Also bear in mind that a soap that seems "scentless" can reclaim much of its scent in a hot shower or bath as the outside layers slough off.

 

[IrishLass]

....what are your favorite, tried and true oil
Combos?

I have a good handful up my sleeve from all my years of avid experimenting, but the 2 that I make the most are pretty simple. One is an animal fat soap that uses a combo of tallow and lard, (I like them both together) along with the usual suspects of olive, castor and a bubbly oil component such as coconut and/or PKO and/or babassu, and the other is an all-veggie formula that uses olive oil, a bubbly oil component such as what I mentioned above, castor, and a butter such as cocoa butter to lend hardness.

I was having good luck with coconut oil, olive and vegetable shortening but recently started adding butters and canola (it's cheap!) and my batches have been behaving a bit differently in the sense that they don't set up as fast I try to unmold and on occasion things are still sticky after a few days.

Without seeing your formula or knowing your process, it's hard to say what could be the defining culprit, but having worked with canola in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if the canola might not be lending a helping hand to the initial softness/stickiness (because of its higher linoleic and linolenic contents)...depending on how much you use.

This leads me to want to try CPOP more often but then I worry that will rule out goats milk as I don't enjoy the darker color aspect of gelled milk.

I know its hard to believe, but you can gel goat-milk soap without it going brown on you. I do it all the time. I use the split method and gel them all the way in a pre-warmed then turned off oven (pre-warmed to only 110F before turning it off), and come out with creamy looking off-white/ivory-colored soaps every time, unless I also add honey, that is, then it goes to medium/dark tan. lol

On to the next questions.. I watched several youtubers doing fascinating hot process batches and couldn't wait to give it a try. I read somewhere that I should hold out some of the liquid till after the cook. That ended disasterously .........I guess the question is, and it seems I've since read this elsewhere too, was it wrong to hold out some of the liquid till the end? Seems to me people are ADDING liquid in the begining if anything?

Superfatting oils are an exception, but as for water-based liquids- I always add the full complement of those up front/at the beginning when I do HP since there will be a certain amount of evaporation that goes on during the cook. If one adds too little liquid up front, it's pretty much a given that you will end up with dried out soap curds that are impossible to work with (been there, done that). The only things I add at the end of HP are my colorants (if I'm swirling), my FO, and any extra fat or oil if I'm superfatting after the fact.

I'm figuring that must be why everything seized. I definitely won't be trying hot process again until I am just going to to a water batch (the main reason I was doing it anyway was for the color popping possibilities! And the more instant gratification aspect!) I know I won't give up but it sure is frustrating to have something beautiful in your mind and come up with "potato salad" lol!

If you want your colors to pop, it's very easy to do with CP- all you need to do is make sure your soap goes through gel.

In regards to the "more instant gratification" aspect, please don't be fooled by all the misleading info out there regarding HP vs. CP. Trust me, there's misleading info a-plenty out there by the bucket-full thanks (or rather no thanks) to all the different (new) soaper bloggers that haven't had any or not enough comparative soap experiences to know any better....yet. The reality of the matter is that soaps made by either process can be used right away after unmolding as long as there is no zap present, but neither of the soaps will be anywhere near as good as they will be after a good cure, and that's a fact you can bet on.

As far as cure goes with HP, many of us have learned the hard way that our HP soaps actually take longer to cure than our CP soaps (because of the extra water needed for HP). I personally have found that my HP soaps benefit greatly by staying on my cure rack for at least 2 weeks longer than my CP soaps, believe it or not.

Re: citrus EOs- ditto what the others have said. Your best bet might be to use an orange FO instead, but make sure to read up on as many reviews as you are able to on the FO before deciding to buy it.


IrishLass

 

[Susie]

Thank you! This is awesome feedback. People keep recommending lard but I have yet to find it or palm oil in the grocery stores or the wholesale club where I shop?! I'm totally open to that. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Same with castor oil, I got a small bottle from brambleberry but not sure where I would find that locally. Thank you so much for your advice, what you are saying definitely makes sense! Can anyone chime in that's used litsea cubea specifically with citrus and had any luck? Thanks all!

If you could let us know where you live, it would help. I buy lard at the grocery store (HEB has 25 lb pails for a good price) or Walmart in 4 lb pails. Both are in the baking aisle with the oils.

Castor Oil should be available in the pharmacy section of Walmart, Walgreens, or CVS by the laxatives. You can buy it much cheaper online, though.

I have never been able to anchor citrus EOs with anything. Not litsea, not clays, not cornstarch. Nothing. It makes liquid soap smell awesome, though!

 

[Saponomancer]

I want to say that unlike the others I actually add my split liquid at the end to make it more fluid and have had no problem with it at all Although it does sound like you cooked it too long before adding anything in at the end. What I end up doing is 2:1 water up front then one more part water at the end. I forget where I picked that up from, sadly.

 

[earlene]

Thank you! This is awesome feedback. People keep recommending lard but I have yet to find it or palm oil in the grocery stores or the wholesale club where I shop?! I'm totally open to that. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places. Same with castor oil, I got a small bottle from brambleberry but not sure where I would find that locally. Thank you so much for your advice, what you are saying definitely makes sense! Can anyone chime in that's used litsea cubea specifically with citrus and had any luck? Thanks all!

At one grocery store I saw the lard in the ethnic foods section, not with the vegetable oils.

The pharmacy section of a grocery store may have Castor Oil. Most stand-alone pharmacies I've been to carry it in either the area where they sell laxatives or sometimes I've seen it in the area where they have supplements (only once did I see it there, and don't remember what store that was - it doesn't belong there, IMO.)

BTW, where do you live, deebop? What country at least. The state or province can help, too. That would help people to give you recommendations.

 

[SunRiseArts]

Were you aiming to try the hot process fluid soap? So it would look like CP, but harden faster? I have done that one before, in my personal experience, you make your soap being to trace and go through the hot process part, with all your oils. Only at the end you add the yogurt to make it more fluid, so you can do your swirls or whatever décor you are trying to achieve. You also need to work really, really fast, or it will harden on you. Is a matter of perfect timing. Personally, I have not done it anymore, I find it too consuming, and achieve better results with CP, so unless you are in a hurry for time....

But do not throw away your batches! I LOVE doing rebatch soap. It gives so many possibilities. When you have time, just grate it, and make another batch from it.

 

[deebop]

Thanks for all your replies!! You guys are always more than helpful and as much as I tell myself that I'll not get discouraged and I'll use each "failure"'or mishap as a chance to learn... unfortunately I have had 3 mishaps in a row now and all have involved liquid discounts. Today I tried to discount once again 1:1 i(distilled water) in the begining and then added the rest of the liquid (GM) at trace... it seized immediately. I wasn't even trying to HP so my only logic was to save the GM from possibly scorching at the begining. Why did I let myself ignore my past 2 negative experiences with 1:1!? And to make matters worse every time I type anything in google about liquid discount and adding GM at trace i see people left and right doing it everywhere!! How maddening!! Here's an example of people talking about it. (Was just trying to see if there is a proper way to do it that I am missing!! http://teachsoap.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6305
I was able to save the batch by adding a half cup of hot water and working it back to a state where it could be glopped into the mold... but it was NOT IDEAL! I'm so sad!
I will try to upload a pic of my recipe (calculated with brambleberry's lye calc) so you guys can tell me what you think, what you would have done different but I have a feeling too many hard oils and not enough liquid up front. My heart is broken cause I was gonna attempt to pour colors and the EO are some of my faves! Mint and tea tree..

 

[deebop]

Were you aiming to try the hot process fluid soap? So it would look like CP, but harden faster? I have done that one before, in my personal experience, you make your soap being to trace and go through the hot process part, with all your oils. Only at the end you add the yogurt to make it more fluid, so you can do your swirls or whatever décor you are trying to achieve. You also need to work really, really fast, or it will harden on you. Is a matter of perfect timing. Personally, I have not done it anymore, I find it too consuming, and achieve better results with CP, so unless you are in a hurry for time....

But do not throw away your batches! I LOVE doing rebatch soap. It gives so many possibilities. When you have time, just grate it, and make another batch from it.

Yes this is what I was trying. Hot process FLUID. More like HP CHUNKY STYLE.
I'm a failure!! Thanks for your response, I feel like this is what I attempted but ....:headbanging:

 

[TBandCW]

Walmart saved my pootootie when I was a little short on castor oil! Pharmacy section.....

 

[Steve85569]

HP is ( for me) trickier than cold process.
Why not try CP a time or two and then go on to the HP. It may help you see when you have soap in the pot and it's time to get it molded up.

Cure times are the same anyway...

 

[SunRiseArts]

Yes this is what I was trying. Hot process FLUID. More like HP CHUNKY STYLE.
I'm a failure!! Thanks for your response, I feel like this is what I attempted but ....:headbanging:

lol don't feel like that hot fluid soaps takes lots of practice. Is not easy.

 

[deebop]

Thanks once again awesome people! Love your advice and words of encouragement as usual!
I want to ask again since it's the one question that seemed to be over looked from my original (long winded) post... does vanilla fade? I'm using vanilla cybilla from brambleberry and not sure if it's faded because of the fact that I used it with orange (that faded entirely away) which just evaporated and took the vanilla with it? Or if it has something to do with the color stabilizer that I use with it!? (Equal parts vanilla + stabilizer) ... anyone have any experience with this? I want to put vanilla in EVERYTHING! Lol... since I love it so much .. but I guess why bother if t won't stay!! Help!!

 

[deebop]

HP is ( for me) trickier than cold process.
Why not try CP a time or two and then go on to the HP. It may help you see when you have soap in the pot and it's time to get it molded up.

Cure times are the same anyway...

Oh I've done CP and had great and fun success. About 10 batches. Love everything about it! Just thought I would try HP Cause I thought I would get something special out of the opportunity to pour and swirl and have brighter colors. But I'll take muted colors anyway compared to risking wasting soap. Also I will sooner do CPHP in the oven than I will ever do forced HP again. Blah.

 

[SunRiseArts]

Thanks once again awesome people! Love your advice and words of encouragement as usual!
I want to ask again since it's the one question that seemed to be over looked from my original (long winded) post... does vanilla fade? I'm using vanilla cybilla from brambleberry and not sure if it's faded because of the fact that I used it with orange (that faded entirely away) which just evaporated and took the vanilla with it? Or if it has something to do with the color stabilizer that I use with it!? (Equal parts vanilla + stabilizer) ... anyone have any experience with this? I want to put vanilla in EVERYTHING! Lol... since I love it so much .. but I guess why bother if t won't stay!! Help!!

Vanilla always changes the end result of your color. Most likely than not turns in different shades of brown.

Soap queen has a good article on it. Hopefully is ok to post.

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-...tricks/the-truth-about-vanilla-essential-oil/

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/why-did-my-soap-turn-brown/

 

[deebop]

not the color...

It's the scent I'm concerned about... the vanilla color stabilizer that I have been adding in CP only to find out I'm not supposed to use it for CP!.. I'm wondering if that's the reason the scent (vanilla) is fading and if its carrying other scents along with it. I think I will not use it for CP any more even though I've read that other people have had luck with it despite the recommendation not to? Something about using a chemical in my soap doesn't thrill me anyway.

 

[mx5inpenn]

I use a FO from NG called vanilla bean that sticks very well. I doubt the vanilla fading has anything to do with the orange fading. All citrus is notorious for fading in cp. I wouldn't bother with the stabilizer, the results are only temporary at best. If you love the scent of vanilla, learn to love brown!