Would cocoa butter be considered as drying to the skin?

[srez]

The couple of batches that I had made seem to be drying as opposed to other batches without cocoa butter. Is there a max % recommended to use cocoa butter?

 

[Marsi]

Like tallow, which is also high in stearic, it can be drying in quantity, especially if soft liquid oils aren't added.

But as a part of a formula, it can be exquisite.

In terms of sustainabilty, is is another tropic plant that is profitable.

 

[srez]

Thank you @Marsi for your quick response.

I was under the impression that upping the palmitic & stearic would make a bar last longer. So I focused on that and didn't think of the drying aspect. I used the cocoa butter at 28% and PO at 22% and OO at 9%. Do you think that is too much palm oil as well? I read on another thread that a higher PO% would add to the longevity.

 

[Marsi]

Thank you @Marsi for your quick response.

I was under the impression that upping the palmitic & stearic would make a bar last longer. So I focused on that and didn't think of the drying aspect. I used the cocoa butter at 28% and PO at 22% and OO at 9%. Do you think that is too much palm oil as well? I read on another thread that a higher PO% would add to the longevity.

Palmitic and stearic do make the bar last longer, too much and the bar will crack during use. Palm oil contains a lot of palmitic - you can see this in your so@p calculator.

Could you post the full recipe, including water and lye? I am finding it difficult to help without knowing what's in the soap. Example. If you have coconut at a high percentage, this can be very stripping.

(and there's plenty of people who will help, given enough information)

 

[srez]

Palmitic and stearic do make the bar last longer, too much and the bar will crack during use. Palm oil contains a lot of palmitic - you can see this in your so@p calculator.

Could you post the full recipe, including water and lye? I am finding it difficult to help without knowing what's in the soap. Example. If you have coconut at a high percentage, this can be very stripping.

(and there's plenty of people who will help, given enough information)

Thanks Marsi,

This is one of the recipes that I came up with. I used coffee ice cubes as the water.

I was shooting for a higher P+S because my other recipes in the low to mid 30's were lasting about 10 showers.

Funny thing is that this one lasted just as long.... 10 showers.

Any advice on how to extend the life of the bar without using lard or tallow?

Edited to add - What else would you change about this recipe?

Thank you,

Steve

 

[penelopejane]

32% Palm, 32% Coconut oil, 32% Olive oil and 4% castor makes a rock hard bar.
Some people find the coconut oil at 32% too drying so if you stick to 15% coconut oil and add 10% cocoa butter and 7% of any other oil for the rest of the coconut oil part you should have a long lasting bar.

 

[johnnyusa]

i don't use wax but 11% sounds like alot
i was taught 20% max on cocoa butter but it's so expensive i use it @ 10% rarely 15% once @ 20% and yea it was nice... but 29% cocoa butter might be pushing it. I'd way increase the olive and cut down on the saturated fats and wax. I think I read somewhere use shortening for liquid soap and lard for bar soap.

 

[Marsi]

i don't use wax but 11% sounds like alot
i was taught 20% max on cocoa butter but it's so expensive i use it @ 10% rarely 15% once @ 20% and yea it was nice... but 29% cocoa butter might be pushing it. I'd way increase the olive and cut down on the saturated fats and wax. I think I read somewhere use shortening for liquid soap and lard for bar soap.

Soy wax (aka, hydrogenated soy bean oil, turned into stearic chains mostly)
I've used at 50%
It still makes soap. Cracks like an old bar of Velvet (laundry) Soap
https://pentalfactorysales.com.au/products/velvet-pure-soap-4-pkt

 

[srez]

Thank you @Marsi @penelopejane @johnnyusa for your responses. I will tweak this recipe a bit and see what gives.

 

[TheGecko]

I use a high amount of Cocoa Butter in one of my Lotion Bars...not at all drying. In soap, I use it at 10% along with the same amount of Shea Butter. I have seen recommendations of a max of 15%-20% in soap because it can cause cracking.

Below is my recipe if you would like to try it. I give it a minimum of a six week cure. It lathers nice, has nice bubbles, lasts about a month in the shower with regular use and doesn't dry out the skin.

35% Olive Oil
20% Coconut Oil
20% Palm Oil
10% Cocoa Butter
10% Shea Butter
5% Castor Oil

33% Lye Concentration
5% Super Fat

1 tea Sodium Lactate PPO
1 tea Kaolin Clay PPO

 

[srez]

I use a high amount of Cocoa Butter in one of my Lotion Bars...not at all drying. In soap, I use it at 10% along with the same amount of Shea Butter. I have seen recommendations of a max of 15%-20% in soap because it can cause cracking.

Below is my recipe if you would like to try it. I give it a minimum of a six week cure. It lathers nice, has nice bubbles, lasts about a month in the shower with regular use and doesn't dry out the skin.

35% Olive Oil
20% Coconut Oil
20% Palm Oil
10% Cocoa Butter
10% Shea Butter
5% Castor Oil

33% Lye Concentration
5% Super Fat

1 tea Sodium Lactate PPO
1 tea Kaolin Clay PPO

Thanks! @TheGecko

Interestingly enough... I made similar batches with those ingredients / percentages and couldn't get past the 10 day shower mark.

However, I have not yet tried Sodium Lactate or Kaolin Clay. Could that be the magic ticket to add to a longer lasting bar?

I should also add that these are 4 ounce bars that I've been testing.

After reading and reading and more reading, I read that I should up my P+S to over 34 combined. Which is why I upped the P+S on this particular batch.

The bar lasted 10 showers and did not crack. Some of the other batches where the P+S were in the low 30's. I even waited past 6 weeks to test.

I also lowered the CO and OO percentages because of the solubility but still couldn't get past that 10 day mark.

Is it possible that not all OO, CO, PO, cocoa butter etc are the same? Meaning, If I purchase my oils and butters from one supplier and you purchase from another (different brands) and we match the percentages, ambient temp, humidity, method of stirring etc to the T, could we potentially get noticeably different bars?

Thank you,

Steve

 

[Zing]

Hey, Steve! Varying brand names won't make a difference. My brands are from all over the place.

I routinely use sodium lactate at 3% of oil weight (I'm probably on the high side). I like it because I can unmold in 24 hours.

I love my bubbles! Your bubbly number is low. If bubbles are important to you, you can add sugar to your lye liquid. You can do a search here on the various kinds of sugar. I use 1/2 Tbsp white table sugar per pound of oil. I fully dissolve it in water first, then add lye. It'll turn a slight yellow which has no bearing on the final color. It was a game changer for me!

I'm really not one to talk because I finally fine-tuned my basic recipe to 6 oils/butters. I wanted to get it to 5 or less. Because dishes.

Good luck! You'll get there soon because of all your good notes and observations.

 

[srez]

Hey, Steve! Varying brand names won't make a difference. My brands are from all over the place.

I routinely use sodium lactate at 3% of oil weight (I'm probably on the high side). I like it because I can unmold in 24 hours.

I love my bubbles! Your bubbly number is low. If bubbles are important to you, you can add sugar to your lye liquid. You can do a search here on the various kinds of sugar. I use 1/2 Tbsp white table sugar per pound of oil. I fully dissolve it in water first, then add lye. It'll turn a slight yellow which has no bearing on the final color. It was a game changer for me!

I'm really not one to talk because I finally fine-tuned my basic recipe to 6 oils/butters. I wanted to get it to 5 or less. Because dishes.

Good luck! You'll get there soon because of all your good notes and observations.

Thanks! @Zing I keep tweaking here and there hoping to find that obvious difference between batches. Sugar is definitely on my radar next. I was trying to break that 10 day longevity streak which is why I lowered the CO and OO. Normally I keep them in the 20's.

I sometimes omit the soy wax (I've been using @Mobjack Bay FA profile for 415) to see if that makes a difference too.

Good to know as far as different brands. I make candles so I am so used to just about everything being a different variable

 

[srez]

I use a high amount of Cocoa Butter in one of my Lotion Bars...not at all drying. In soap, I use it at 10% along with the same amount of Shea Butter. I have seen recommendations of a max of 15%-20% in soap because it can cause cracking.

Below is my recipe if you would like to try it. I give it a minimum of a six week cure. It lathers nice, has nice bubbles, lasts about a month in the shower with regular use and doesn't dry out the skin.

35% Olive Oil
20% Coconut Oil
20% Palm Oil
10% Cocoa Butter
10% Shea Butter
5% Castor Oil

33% Lye Concentration
5% Super Fat

1 tea Sodium Lactate PPO
1 tea Kaolin Clay PPO

I'm going to give this a go this weekend. Question for ya.... Do you add the sodium lactate and kaolin clay to your oils before or after you add your lye mix? Or does it not really matter?

Thank you again,

Steve

 

[Zing]

I mix my oils in one bowl. I make lye solution in another bowl. After cooling, I dump the sodium lactate into the lye solution. Thoroughly mix your clay into the oil mixture.

 

[srez]

I mix my oils in one bowl. I make lye solution in another bowl. After cooling, I dump the sodium lactate into the lye solution. Thoroughly mix your clay into the oil mixture.

Perfect! Thanks @Zing

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’ve been trying to come up with a reason that your soap is not lasting as long as you would like. Given the high amount of stearic+palmitic in the recipe you posted, it should be the ultimate gobstopper of soap bars. You mentioned that you‘re making 4 oz. bars. Is that before or after they’ve had a chance to cure? If you have a 4 oz. bar on the initial cut, that’s a fairly small bar. With shape controlled, e.g. compare a rectangular soap with a rectangular soap, small bars have a higher surface area to volume ratio. More of the soap volume in a small bar is exposed to water on each use compared with a larger similarly shaped bar.* The more soap in contact with water in use, the shorter the bar life. Plus there’s just less soap per bar. I make ”bath” bars with 33% stearic+palmitic that dry to 6 oz. One of my friends came up with the name gobstopper because of how long one of the bars I gave her lasted. Another variable is how you use the soap. A washcloth probably removes more soap with each use compared to hands only. Does the soap get a good chance to dry out between uses? If not, the soap will be probably be easier to solubilize on the next use. The number of uses may be a better gauge of the durability of a bar compared with how long it lasts over time. A soap used for a shower every other day is going to last a lot longer than a soap in use for showers 2x a day.

* edited for clarity, plus I did the math. A 2” by 3” bar that is 1“ thick has a surface area of 22 square inches and a volume of 6 cubic inches for a surface area to volume ratio of 3.7. A 2.5” by 3.5” bar that is 1.5” thick has a a surface area of 35.5 square inches and a volume of 13.125 cubic inches for a smaller surface to volume ratio of 2.7. The volume of soap in the larger bar is also >2 times the volume of soap in the smaller bar.

 

[TheGecko]

I'm going to give this a go this weekend. Question for ya.... Do you add the sodium lactate and kaolin clay to your oils before or after you add your lye mix? Or does it not really matter?

Thank you again,

Steve

I add my Sodium Lactate to my Lye Solution. I disperse my Kaolin Clay in my FO and then add to my oils, give it a good whiz, then add in my Lye Solution. The except to the latter is if I'm make an unscented soap and then I disperse in a bit of water.

 

[srez]

Hey @Mobjack Bay thank you for your response!

Sooo..... what I have been doing is making 500 gram batches in a square silicone mold https://www.amazon.com/BAKER-DEPOT-Silicone-Handmade-Square/dp/B001UN3JC2 and then the remainder (about 5 or so ounces) of it would go into the 4oz cavity mold. The 500 gram silicone mold / batch I cut into 4 bars.

At first I tested one 4 ounce bar at 4 weeks and got 10 uses /showers / once a day out of it. I just use soap to body, soap is not in the line of fire of the water while showering, no washcloth, and sitting on a soap saver in the shower.... Totally dry the next morning. I have never in my life paid more attention to a showering routine than I have in the last few months.

So I then waited until 6 weeks and tested other batches. All or which had similar FA values. The p+s ranges would be at 30 / low 30's.

At this point I thought of upping the p+s to as far as I could (within reason). Granted, the above shown recipe I tested at 4 weeks. I figured with the p+s at the percentage, this should last a lot longer. Not so. Same deal... 10 uses / showers / once a day. I'll test another bar of this same batch for the fun of it at 6 weeks to see if that makes a difference.

Not sure if soft water makes a difference, but where I live in Southeastern Massachusetts, per the gentleman that I spoke with at the water department, we have "super soft water" and that the amount of soft water that we have is "just about perfect as far as soft water goes" in our and surrounding area.

Granted the bigger bars should last longer, but I am more curious now at this point as to why that higher percentage of p+s (42) is lasting just as long as p+s at 30 / low 30's. I think I read another thread where someone mentioned that high palmitic may contribute be more solubility?? I may have misread it but is that even a possibility?

Thanks,

Steve

I add my Sodium Lactate to my Lye Solution. I disperse my Kaolin Clay in my FO and then add to my oils, give it a good whiz, then add in my Lye Solution. The except to the latter is if I'm make an unscented soap and then I disperse in a bit of water.

Thank you! @TheGecko

 

[MelissaG]

I've never found it drying. I use it in place of shea in my oatmeal, milk and honey bars (apparently it works beautifully for diabetic skin according to my husbands friend).