why use palm n coconut together?

[Bex1982]

A soaper just told me that palm and coconut have almost the same exact effects in cp soap, like the hardness but also both being drying to the skin.

I'm just contemplating soaping with palm because now there is sustainable palm oil. But if it's the same thing as coconut, why would I need to? I know a lot of you have been using palm for years, so maybe you can shine some light on this for me?

 

[Susie]

Palm, lard, and tallow provide the same properties(maybe I am mistaken?) Coconut brings other qualities- hardness, lather. Coconut can be drying. Lard, palm, tallow are far more conditioning.

 

[Bex1982]

What im sort of understanding is that they are all hardening and drying but coconut makes fluffier bubbles.. ?

 

[FGOriold]

Your friend is probably referring to coconut and palm kernel oil/flakes not palm oil - they sound similar but are two different things that bring different qualities to your soap. Palm kernel is similar to coconut oil and can be interchanged.

 

[Obsidian]

Thats not quite right. Palm kernel oil has similar properties to coconut oil so you only need to use one of them. Palm oil brings hardness and creamy lather to soap, much like lard or tallow.

For a well balanced soap you need oils that bring all the right qualities. A simple three oil soap is often one of the best.

Palm or lard for hardness and creaminess
coconut or palm kernel for cleansing and big bubbles
Olive oil for conditioning

This might help some more
http://home.windstream.net/familyjeans/propertiesofoils.html

 

[Bex1982]

Maybe I can get some help ladies. I did buy the palm oil so I have some. This is the recipe I'm trying to tweak. I'd like to eliminate hydro soy. You'll laugh at the high % of coconut but it's a really nice soap and one of my best selling ones, I'm nervous to even change it. I do still have soy if you all think I should just stick to that.

So its:
40% coconut
15% pomace olive
30% hydro soy
15% shea butter

So, I now have palm... I tried it in the lye calc at different % and they kept coming out as pretty soft and not very cleansing. I only have palm, coconut, soy, caster, olive and shea at the moment. Any suggestions?

 

[Obsidian]

I ran your original recipe through soapcal then replaced the soy with the palm and the numbers are nearly the same. The hardness of the palm recipe is less then your original but still a very hard bar of soap.
I have to admit, I'm surprised you like this recipe, the cleansing number is quite high. I don't even make my mechanics soap that cleansing.
Have you tried a soap with a lower cleansing number? Even with the number at 0, it still will clean you. My basic bar is 15 cleansing, 38 hardness and 18 bubbly.

Here is suggestion, maybe try a small batch and see if you like it. If not then just replace the soy in your original with the same amount of palm.

Olive Oil 35%
Palm 20%
coconut 20%
Shea 15%

 

[Bex1982]

I like that suggestion, I was mainly worried about the palm being drying since I read that in a few places. That your coconut and palm together should not exceed 30%. They did not specify palm kernel or just palm oil. The reason I've kept my soaps under 15% olive oil is because in the beginning when I would use more olive oil my soaps took forever to cure and seemed to have a rubbery quality. It scared me off from using more than 15%, by the time cure was done the fragrance oil was pretty much gone. This particular soap is geared towards oily skin, maybe that's why the high cleansing doesn't seem to be a big deal but I have thought it might be overkill, although I've had a lot of repeat purchases for this one and I do make others that have less coconut but they seem to stay softer.

I do feel like giving your formula a try. If I really can replace the soy with palm that would be great. Was really only concerned about the drying thing in combo with coconut.

Thank you so much for your help!!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Palm oil and shea butter have a very similar profile - I would up the palm and drop the shea, unless you are doing HP and want some shea added after the cook.

I use 45% palm, 15% CO and 40% olive. Not a long cure (4 weeks), not drying and in all, a great bar of soap.

You need to forget that very bad connection between CO and palm. As has been said, Palm KERNEL and CO are similar, but CO and palm are as different as CO and shea butter are.

 

[mintle]

I agree with TEG. And with olive oil, I only notice that rubbery slippery feeling in soaps when I exceed 40% of oo in my recipe. Below that I feel on the safe side, and oo is my main conditioner in soaps along with ho sunflower.

 

[Obsidian]

I use a lot of OO in my recipes, its a very conditioning oil. If you are concerned about too much OO, you can always swith it around some. This is a new recipe I recently made, its a much harder bar then my normal base recipe.

Palm Oil 40%
Coconut 20%
Olive Oil 30%
Shea 5%
castor 5%

 

[Bex1982]

Palm oil and shea butter have a very similar profile - I would up the palm and drop the shea, unless you are doing HP and want some shea added after the cook.

I use 45% palm, 15% CO and 40% olive. Not a long cure (4 weeks), not drying and in all, a great bar of soap.

You need to forget that very bad connection between CO and palm. As has been said, Palm KERNEL and CO are similar, but CO and palm are as different as CO and shea butter are.

So shea and palm can sub eachother?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

They can indeed - when it comes to saponified properties. Check out the number on soap calc and the two are almost identical.

 

[Bex1982]

They can indeed - when it comes to saponified properties. Check out the number on soap calc and the two are almost identical.

I looked and they are very similar. I was searching and I did find this older post on the forum. It seems there still might be a reason to use both:

"The numbers you are looking at have their uses, but I would not assume any two fats will produce similar soap, just because the hardness, bubbly, creamy, etc. numbers are somewhat similar. My husband and a body builder might weigh the same, but I suspect it might be inaccurate to decide the two guys are "similar" on the basis of their weights. :grin:

Asking your pardon in advance for trotting out even more numbers, here is more detailed info on these two:

The NaOH saponification number of Palm is running about 0.144; shea is about 0.131. The iodine number (a measure of polyunsaturation) is 48-58 for palm, 125-145 for shea, indicating shea has more unsaturated fatty acids. My notes show INS values of about 148 for palm and 112 for shea, more or less. All this means palm is going to saponify easier and give a harder, less conditioning bar.

Palmitic (saturated) and oleic (monosaturated) fatty acids predominate in the palm oil. Oleic and stearic (saturated) fatty acids are the main ones in shea. If you are concerned about DOS, both fats should work well, but palm gets the edge due to less polyunsaturation, looking back at the iodine numbers.

I don't have numbers for the unsaponifiable chemicals in the fats, but my understanding is that shea has quite a high % of unsaponifiables, which would add to the skin conditioning properties in a way that's not measured by the "conditioning, bubbly, creamy, etc." numbers."

 

[shunt2011]

I'm of the mindset that Shea adds something to soap that palm does not do alone. I love shea in my soaps. I too use a relatively high amount of Olive in my soaps and make a great bar of soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

There is that. But someone did a test and couldn't tell the difference between the two, so I am still torn. All things considered, with the costs involved (at least for me, palm and lard are very much cheaper than shea) I'll be sticking to the first two.

 

[Bex1982]

well, here I go with the palm oil... wish me luck all. I'll let you know how it goes and the old recipe vs the new one. :crazy:

 

[Obsidian]

Some people really like shea in soap but personally, I really don't notice a difference with it. I made some salt bars with 20% shea and it actually reduced the lather some and is my least favorite salt bars I've made.

 

[Bex1982]

Some people really like shea in soap but personally, I really don't notice a difference with it. I made some salt bars with 20% shea and it actually reduced the lather some and is my least favorite salt bars I've made.

Shea does seem to reduce lather. Im surprised it did even with coconut. Could be the combo with the salt or maybe the %. I normally use shea at 5-15%. I did make one for my sister once that was 20% or so in a milk soap, it was really conditioning, but I can't remeber if it made much lather. She said it smelled too milky. She was trying to get me to dupe that scottish milk soap but I personally can't stand the smell of that stuff!

 

[Obsidian]

I just double checked my recipe, it was only 10% shea. My favorite salt bar has been 80% coconut, 20 OO. Lots of lather and conditioning. Just made one with 20% avocado, I think it will be my new favorite. Avocado is fantastic in soap, I really like using it for SF in HP.
How did your palm soap turn out?