Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers? A brief encounter

[TVivian]

Where can you do that? SFIC is mostly close to double that.[/QUOTE]


They're not SFIC, but Brambleberry, New Directions Aromatics, and soapers choice all have bulk bases for under $2 a pound. Amazon has very low prices on M&P as well.
(Very late on answering this.. I didn't see it)

 

[cmzaha]

I have recently started making my own M&P base, experimenting with cucumber and avocado oils and shea butter. It is fun and fairly easy. Once I discovered how creative one could be with M&P soaps, I was hooked. I still make CP soap, but have branched out using M&P also. Don't let the negative attitude of others bother you, just be proud of your product.:wink:

This is on the top of my list for this year. I am going to start making my daughter her M&P base. At least I am going to try... I applaud anyone that can work with m&P I cannot work with it worth a da...n but my daughter does beautiful and makes some very very nice bars. We buy over a pallet a year of base from a local supplier that makes a very high end non detergent. MP soap is not bad for all skin. I actually use both cp and mp when I shower. Some areas of my body do not accept cp soap at all. A soap snob I am not. My goal is to sell soap and I have several customers that use only mp. Cp is not the answer for everyone. My daughter cannot use any handmade soap including mp, she has to use Cetaphil

 

[cmzaha]

This exactly! But there are CP soapers who are IMHO not good at their craft and not confident in their product so they have to put down MP, HP and anything else that is not CP. I make HP and MP soap but I started with CP and to me, CP soap is not strong enough in scent for me or my customers- though the ones I make and buy from other soap artists are wonderful, just not my cup of tea for the most part, of course there are exceptions.

People knock MP and even the whipped foaming bath butter because of the ingredients but they don't consider that high ph soaps are not for everyone's skin and some MP bases like Stephenson's with SLES are amazing and NDA's foaming bath butter as well- those are both low ph soaps and my son (as much as it pains me) cannot use my HP or CP soap or the SFIC base I sell, he has eczema and when he is in a flare, it just aggravates it more even Castile soap. My itchy back is the some way- the rest of my body is fine. Oh and before you think it- I don't make lye heavy soaps- more than 20 years experience handles that. CP/HP is a high ph soap by nature but of course most reliable soapers know this.

In other words, just because a person doesn't do that type of soap doesn't mean it's bad. Everyone has different skin and has different comfort zones when creating their products. We create our products because we love them and believe in them, otherwise what is the point of doing it? So keep doing what you are doing- there are enough soap recipes to go around and great soap artists in every soap genre. There are also those with really pretty CP soaps that are drying. It's all relative.
Just stay positive and believe in what you are doing and selling.
There is nothing worse (at least online sales) than going to a listing and seeing a soap maker bash MP, HP, CP or any soap that isn't what they are selling. It seems like desperation to me.
Ignore those who want to treat you like that lady who said MP isn't real soap...

We also love NDA's foaming bath butter. I have severe eczema and my friend is my dead sea salt scrub I make with my cream soap base. Really helps keep my eczema and severe itching under control. I do add in some lavender eo. Use it after using my soap for showering.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I once had someone say "I make my own coffee every morning - it doesn't mean I get up at 2 am to harvest and roast the beans", which I thought was actually a neat metaphor!

We're all crafters, we're all artists. When I knit a sweater I can still say I made it even if I don't shear my own sheep - I don't really get the hostility between CP/HP/MP artists. We're all on the same team, I think - lets just be supportive and helpful to each other, regardless of what the route we take to get to a great bar of soap, as long as we're doing it in the best way we know how

I agree that we are mostly crafters and artists and I am not one that looks down on M&P in general (more on that later!), but I do think the analogies here are not fitting.

When someone makes coffee in the morning, we are referring to the drink of coffee - not the bag of beans. In fact, someone who works for Kenco might well say that they make coffee for a living, but in a different way from someone in Starbucks makes coffee - coffee the commodity or coffee the drink is the key.

When you knit a sweater, you use processed wool to make it. Raw wool still on the sheep is not required - you need the raw wool to make processed wool, but you're making a sweater FROM wool, not making wool.

To use your analogies, if I take a cup of steaming hot Joe, put in a spoon of sugar and some cream, have I just made a cup of coffee? If I take a knitted sweater and sew on some sequins, have I just made a sweater?

In M&P, people start with soap - the soap base. If you do not make this base yourself, you do not make soap. In the same way that if you don't knit the sweater, you don't actually knit the sweater.

Here's the reason why I said I'd come back to my comment on M&P in general being a good thing -

Many M&Pers take the soap base and do amazing things with it. My other posts in this thread will also show how impressed I am with what people do with M&P. It's mind-blowing. But my sister (my own sister, the shame of it all!) takes a soap base, melts it down, adds some scent and colour and molds it up. That's it. Then she says that she's made soap, when she has done nothing of the sort! If she was to sell it as homemade soap, I would be really annoyed with her - she doesn't make soap as she starts off with a pre-made soap base. I would say that when she does this, she is neither a crafter nor an artist.

Taking a soap base and doing wonderful things with it is artistic, but it is still not making soap.

 

[panzerakc]

I had an entertaining conversation with a young lady who made MP soap at a craft show in the fall of 2012.

(First, though, I want to say that for the entire time of the show in question, a Saturday/Sunday show, not once did I hear her say to a customer, "My soap is made without lye".)

At some point, I wandered over to her booth, and asked her if hers was CP soap.

Her eyes got big and she shook her head. "Oh, no, I don't do the hard stuff like you do."

Anita

 

[Miz Jenny]

If I were a vendor at a craft show or farmers market, I would be annoyed if another booth was selling M&P for the same price as I was selling CP or HP soap. Especially since most consumers really don't know the difference. I guess I would feel compelled to "educate" the masses hahaha.. .. Which might seem like bad mouthing.. (Insert nervous chuckle)

I was at 2 Christmas craft shows with a kid who makes m&p & rebatch soap at $7.50 for a 2oz bar and his parents were telling people he made it from scratch. I sell my 6oz bars for $6.00. Customers asked me the difference between his and my soaps. One woman said "you got some real stiff competition there." I had to bite my tongue.

 

[AnnaMarie]

For me, as an artist and a purist, I view melt and pour as the equivalent of doing a paint by number instead of an actual freehand painting. It's just my personality- it's not personal. Some of us artists freely admit to being "snobs", and my kids poke fun at me for it often. Enjoy your craft as long as you're passionate about it and don't worry about the snobs
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[Miz Jenny]

For me, as an artist and a purist, I view melt and pour as the equivalent of doing a paint by number instead of an actual freehand painting. It's just my personality- it's not personal. Some of us artists freely admit to being "snobs", and my kids poke fun at me for it often. Enjoy your craft as long as you're passionate about it and don't worry about the snobs
Cheers!
Anna Marie

((~))

 

[Lindy]

I have so much respect for what MPers can do with their bases; it simply blows me away. But it is not home-made, it is however hand-crafted and for me there lies the difference. Here in Canada even Health Canada knows that CP/HP soaps that are made properly don't contain lye once made and don't require it on the labels, however they do see MP soap as also being a cosmetic and it has to be treated the same as CP/HP for registration. MP is a craft, one that can require a lot of time, patience and talent. I have started playing with MP and plan on using it for some of the Lava Soaps I've seen others do.

I think early on in my career I was more of a snob about MP but that was before I saw some of the designs MPers can make. And that time, knowledge and talent deserve to cost the same as my CP/HP soaps.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Miz Jenny, I'm not completely texting literate . What is the world does ((~)) mean?

Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[Miz Jenny]

Miz Jenny, I'm not completely texting literate . What is the world does ((~)) mean?

Cheers!
Anna Marie

I REALLY liked what you said.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Thank you! I know a few text symbols, but not many. My kids think I am very uncool for using symbols and emoticons in texting- lol! Don't care!

 

[softpinklove]

Hi, I'm new here. I've only been a soaper for a little over 2 months now and use only M&P. Not because I think it's better because believe me I'd love to actually craft some CP myself! No, it's for safety of my 6 year old son who is autistic. He loves to help me make my soaps and I love seeing him have a big smile on his face! I sell them at my local pharmacy and donate a percentage of sales to Autismspeaks.org. So yes I agree that I'm not making soap from scratch but I still use the term handcrafted on my labels because I am "crafting" little pieces of art since I use embellishments, embeds, swirls, layers, etc. I'm an artist in my spare time and love that I can take that skill and put it into my soap creations.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Hi, I'm new here. I've only been a soaper for a little over 2 months now and use only M&P. Not because I think it's better because believe me I'd love to actually craft some CP myself! No, it's for safety of my 6 year old son who is autistic. He loves to help me make my soaps and I love seeing him have a big smile on his face! I sell them at my local pharmacy and donate a percentage of sales to Autismspeaks.org. So yes I agree that I'm not making soap from scratch but I still use the term handcrafted on my labels because I am "crafting" little pieces of art since I use embellishments, embeds, swirls, layers, etc. I'm an artist in my spare time and love that I can take that skill and put it into my soap creations.

Welcome!

I think that the term handcrafted is ideal for M&P - it is most certainly a craft, by hand, but avoids the whole 'made' debate!

Looking forward to pictures

 

[softpinklove]

Welcome!

I think that the term handcrafted is ideal for M&P - it is most certainly a craft, by hand, but avoids the whole 'made' debate!

Looking forward to pictures

Thank you. I have to say though that I was offended by an earlier post that said M&P was like "paint by numbers". I am an artist, I have painted in oils and watercolors for many, many years and I like to think that my finished soaps are tiny pieces of art in an of themselves whether I made the soap myself or not. I mean I understood the meaning behind the statement, but found it belittling to what I do.

 

[Lindy]

My best advice is to understand that not everyone understands what it takes to create some of those creations. As a CP/HP soap maker I do appreciate the challenge because I can't do it, not that I've tried very hard but I have seen some amazing MP creations.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Thank you. I have to say though that I was offended by an earlier post that said M&P was like "paint by numbers". I am an artist, I have painted in oils and watercolors for many, many years and I like to think that my finished soaps are tiny pieces of art in an of themselves whether I made the soap myself or not. I mean I understood the meaning behind the statement, but found it belittling to what I do.

Soft pink love, I'm truly sorry I offended you with my analogy of "paint by numbers". It was never intended to be demeaning- it was an honest answer to an honest question that was looking for some perspectives on why there was "perceived" hostility towards melt and pour soapers. For a question like that to be honestly answered means hearing some things that someone might not like (I have been on the receiving end myself many times). My comment was ONLY an analogy of my view point. I used the analogy because, well, I come from a family with a long history of sketch, painting, graphic artists who would not favor doing a paint by number (paint by number people should not be offended by this). It was purely meant to illustrate why I thought the way I did. It was NOT intended to be a direct insult. It was only my perception. I also went on in that same post to encourage people who do melt and pour to do so and "ignore the soap snobs". As long as somebody loves what they do they should do it and not apologize for it. People will always see things differently. I hope this makes sense. Again, I am truly sorry.
Cheers!
Anna Marie
- I do want to clarify that I think there are a lot of very beautiful melt and pour soaps out there that were lovingly handcrafted. That was never an issue with me.

 

[Belinda02]

I'm a quilter. We've had the same type of debate in the quilt world. Is it handmade when the top is made by one person but machine quilted by another? Is it handmade when the top is machine pieced but hand quilted? Is it handmade when the top is hand pieced and hand quited? Is it hand made when all fabric and pattern is in a kit? And the debate continues since now it is possible to buy kits when even individual piece are precut, has pattern, background fabric but still needs to be quilted unique to each quilt.

It can be annoying when a quilter hand appliqué's and hand quilts versus a machine appliqué, machine quilted kit..

 

[AnnaMarie]

I'm a quilter. We've had the same type of debate in the quilt world. Is it handmade when the top is made by one person but machine quilted by another? Is it handmade when the top is machine pieced but hand quilted? Is it handmade when the top is hand pieced and hand quited? Is it hand made when all fabric and pattern is in a kit? And the debate continues since now it is possible to buy kits when even individual piece are precut, has pattern, background fabric but still needs to be quilted unique to each quilt.

It can be annoying when a quilter hand appliqué's and hand quilts versus a machine appliqué, machine quilted kit..

Lol! I have been a sewer for 30 yrs now (I chose not to go the professional route), but I have not heard of this debate. Then again I only make one quilt a year and the rest is home decor and clothing. I hand cut and design most of my own quilt patterns, and I machine stitch my appliqués. I am proud of most of what I make, but I would never put myself on the level with a hand quilter (if I'm understanding you correctly you mean sew by hand). I would completely get and respect a hand sewer not viewing my quilt as being as handmade as theirs
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[Belinda02]

AnnaMaria, I agree. I've done a couple with machine appliqué and have a machine for quilting. I've done kits. But kits are just not the same as someone doing their own project.