Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers? A brief encounter

[Derpina Bubbles]

Reading this it's clear the 2 sides will never agree. I personally do both M & P and CP and I constantly find myself b*$%#ing behind my own back. It's terrible.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

"Why the hate?" Just because someone's opinion of melt and pour is the opposite to yours doesn't mean they're hating. I have to agree, like others here have said, I don't really like it either. Sorry.

 

[honeysuds]

It sucks that people can be so mean spirited. I'm about to put myself out there as the black sheep but that's ok :crazy:

I have been making CP soaps for almost 10 years now, its my first love. Tried hot process once (totally accidental) and maybe because I didn't plan for it to happen that way I wrote it off. One day I'll try again. I've made some soaps that were definitely not for my skin type but everyone seemed to love them regardless (better than store bought for sure!).

This year after seeing hundreds of beautiful M&P soaps, I jumped in and bought some detergent free bases from WSP. Much to my surprise, I loved them! I could use less FO, I could use expensive EO that are too cost prohibitive to use in CP and reap the benefits of them as well as additives like clays or small amounts of nourishing skin oils. Its ready to use as soon as it hardens, and it leaves my skin soft. I haven't even gotten into all the decorative aspects yet but as far as I'm concerned that's icing on the cake!

No its not handmade, definitely handcrafted, but still they both have their plus and minuses, they both still take time, creativity, and dedication, and I proudly have both in my soap dish.

 

[Hazel]

The person was very loudly telling everyone at the holiday party that MP is crap and not real soap.

Some people will do anything for attention. I'm sorry this happened to you. Did this person give specifics about why she/he considered MP crap or just mainly spouting nonsense? If this person could give specifics, you could answer them and explain why not all MP is crap. But if it was just nonsense, then it probably was based on emotions and as such, you would not not be able to reason with the person and it's better just to walk away.

I wish I could have been there...heh heh heh. I love a good debate. But if I couldn't have reasoned with the person, I would have happily sat on the person for you. This is a serious deterrent because I've put on weight. :twisted:

I must say this has been a very interesting thread to read. I mainly do CP/HP now but I started with MP and still do it occasionally. I actually have one of the MP soap I made in the main bathroom. It's very nice for my hands and even though it's not as conditioning as I prefer, I do have family members who think it's just fine for body soap. Well, except for the glittery girly stuff in it. I use the clear base from Cierra Candles and it's really good quality. I noticed it's the same base that BB sells, too. Even thought I prefer my soap from scratch for my skin, there are still things I can't do with CP/HP that I can do with MP. Another positive - it's easy to make a quick gift with MP.

I'm also impressed by the artistry and intricacy of some MP soap I've seen. I'd love to do it but I just don't have the patience.

 

[cm4bleenmb]

I have not done M&P, I have only done a few batches of CP. I, too, tend to be a from-scratch kind of girl but I feel that everyone should go for what they like and be respectful of others feelings and opinions.
And I want to comment on the post by The Efficacious Gentleman, where he refers to "the mind-blowing ideas that M&Pers turn in to scented reality". It's a lovely turn of praise:clap:.

 

[Equestrian]

If I were a vendor at a craft show or farmers market, I would be annoyed if another booth was selling M&P for the same price as I was selling CP or HP soap. Especially since most consumers really don't know the difference. I guess I would feel compelled to "educate" the masses hahaha.. .. Which might seem like bad mouthing.. (Insert nervous chuckle)

I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?

Wow! I haven't had a chance to check back due to my buissnesses, and the Holidays. And didn't realize how many pages this would turn into. I gave a bar of my soap to the person who was very loud about it, and asked them to please use it before judging. They said their skin felt amazing after using it, and even their sensitive skinned daughter who couldn't use their CP soap as it is to drying on her skin loved it, and apologized for their behavior.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

While I can't answer that questions, as they are directed at someone other than me. But I can say that there were two articles on this site, which have since been removed, that were putting forth M&P as making soap with out lye. Which is a lie! They were also saying that the CP soaps are more drying and so on and so on.

Now, CP soaps can be drying, of course. But so can M&P soaps! Both can also be awesome, just in different ways.

As I have said many times, my issue is with mis-representation, such as saying M&P has no lye, is home made and is not as drying/has properties that "lye soap" doesn't have.

 

[dixiedragon]

While I can't answer that questions, as they are directed at someone other than me. But I can say that there were two articles on this site, which have since been removed, that were putting forth M&P as making soap with out lye. Which is a lie! They were also saying that the CP soaps are more drying and so on and so on.

Was that the article called "Alternatives to Lye"? I didnt' have a chance to read it, but i see it's gone now. Now I really want to read it.

 

[Tienne]

But I can say that there were two articles on this site, which have since been removed, that were putting forth M&P as making soap with out lye. Which is a lie! They were also saying that the CP soaps are more drying and so on and so on.

Was that the article called "Alternatives to Lye"? I didnt' have a chance to read it, but i see it's gone now. Now I really want to read it.

Hmm. And was the other missing article the one called "Where to Find Soap Ingredients" ?

I can't find either of those two articles. In the comment section of the "Ingredients" article , I questioned a claim that was made (and I can't remember this verbatim) but it was basically along the lines that an organic and (paraphrasing) better soap could be made without the use of lye. It was my understanding that the "Lye Alternative" article was supposed to address that doubt. I didn't get a chance to read the "Lye Alternative" article though, but I would really have liked to read what it had to say. Unless they wrote that rubbing oneself down with a soapnut was the answer, then there simply is no way to do what they claimed in the first article.

 

[Hazel]

Is that article gone? Oh goodie...now if we can only get rid of a few others. :roll:

 

[TVivian]

I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?

Melt and pour soap is cheap. You can buy a pound of it for under two dollars online. I could NEVER make cold process soap for that little what I pay for my oils. I DON'T sell and I DO use melt and pour in combination with my CP soap. So I am not coming from a place where I'm biased toward one or the other. Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.

 

[Hazel]

Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.

Not the kind I buy. It's not that expensive, either. But it still costs a little more per pound than what I make from scratch and that's before I add shipping. It's also more time consuming for the type of soap I make from it. I do agree some MP bases are cheap and not the best in quality.

 

[ourwolfden]

I think you are paying for the time a person puts into m&p. I know some is just a log or just simple pour in molds, but some take a really long time to complete.

 

[Lin]

I think you are paying for the time a person puts into m&p. I know some is just a log or just simple pour in molds, but some take a really long time to complete.

Thats what I was thinking too. Of course if its just a solid color poured into a simple mold it didn't take much time, but if its a complicated pattern where the person had to pour in multiple layers and add embeds and color each layer separately... A lot more time involved. Many people forget that the price of something isn't just materials, most of the cost of a product is overhead.

I make and sell cat collars. If I picked up a yard of cotton fabric from the $2/yard pile at walmart, the fabric in a single collar only cost me pennies. The hardware when purchased in bulk is pretty cheap too. But there is the wear and tear on my sewing machine and iron, gas to get to the store to buy the fabric and shipping cost on my hardware, time putting items online for sale, packaging costs, time manufacturing the item...

 

[Equestrian]

I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?

Melt and pour soap is cheap. You can buy a pound of it for under two dollars online. I could NEVER make cold process soap for that little what I pay for my oils. I DON'T sell and I DO use melt and pour in combination with my CP soap. So I am not coming from a place where I'm biased toward one or the other. Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.

Yes, but good quality ones cost much more then that. Also add in shipping and a good high quality MP base is certinally not cheap. Then add in time, clays, oils, essential oils, etc. Do you see what I mean? Yes some can be crappy cheap bases bought from craft stores, but certinally not all

 

[pamielynn]

I don't think there are any scratch-soapers who would poo-poo the creativity, time and cost of decorative MP. I certainly don't. It's still all about how the soap is marketed. And some MPers not knowing the difference between the MP you get at Michael's and a soap made entirely from scratch.

 

[Feather]

The argument isn't really worth the electrons that are printed on the background image.

Recipe for Chocolate Rum Balls:

Recipe 1:
Buy a chocolate cake
with chocolate icing
8 oz of rum
dipping chocolate chips

Crumble the cake, icing and rum together, drinking some rum for yourself, roll into balls, melt dipping chocolate chips, dip the balls in the chips. Cool.

Recipe 2 from scratch:
First create the world
Rest on sunday
Create humans
humans begin by growing wheat, sugar, chocolate, grow products to make oils, capture chickens for eggs, fermenting grains for rum, processing chocolate, figure out how to make a fire, create ovens and stoves, create baking utensils and pans, create a recipe, sell off your goods to people that want to make Recipe 1 because you are too tired to make it yourself.

The difference between CP and MP, is really not so different. Neither the CP'ers or the MP'ers are capable of Recipe 2, they are just different products produced in different ways. The soaps have different capabilities and the soaps are different. I have enjoyed the CP soaps and I have enjoyed the MP soaps, I happen to like the CP soaps on my skin best.

The only issue I see is honesty about how the soap was processed and what ingredients are in it, and the most important thing is what the soap does to my skin, clean it and moisturize it.
Honesty in business is the integrity that sellers have in business. Some have none, some have some, and some have lots of it. That is what will sell or not sell long term.

 

[Stinkydancer]

I don't think there are any scratch-soapers who would poo-poo the creativity, time and cost of decorative MP. I certainly don't. It's still all about how the soap is marketed. And some MPers not knowing the difference between the MP you get at Michael's and a soap made entirely from scratch.

This exactly! But there are CP soapers who are IMHO not good at their craft and not confident in their product so they have to put down MP, HP and anything else that is not CP. I make HP and MP soap but I started with CP and to me, CP soap is not strong enough in scent for me or my customers- though the ones I make and buy from other soap artists are wonderful, just not my cup of tea for the most part, of course there are exceptions.

People knock MP and even the whipped foaming bath butter because of the ingredients but they don't consider that high ph soaps are not for everyone's skin and some MP bases like Stephenson's with SLES are amazing and NDA's foaming bath butter as well- those are both low ph soaps and my son (as much as it pains me) cannot use my HP or CP soap or the SFIC base I sell, he has eczema and when he is in a flare, it just aggravates it more even Castile soap. My itchy back is the some way- the rest of my body is fine. Oh and before you think it- I don't make lye heavy soaps- more than 20 years experience handles that. CP/HP is a high ph soap by nature but of course most reliable soapers know this.

In other words, just because a person doesn't do that type of soap doesn't mean it's bad. Everyone has different skin and has different comfort zones when creating their products. We create our products because we love them and believe in them, otherwise what is the point of doing it? So keep doing what you are doing- there are enough soap recipes to go around and great soap artists in every soap genre. There are also those with really pretty CP soaps that are drying. It's all relative.
Just stay positive and believe in what you are doing and selling.
There is nothing worse (at least online sales) than going to a listing and seeing a soap maker bash MP, HP, CP or any soap that isn't what they are selling. It seems like desperation to me.
Ignore those who want to treat you like that lady who said MP isn't real soap...

 

[Stinkydancer]

I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?

Melt and pour soap is cheap. You can buy a pound of it for under two dollars online. I could NEVER make cold process soap for that little what I pay for my oils. I DON'T sell and I DO use melt and pour in combination with my CP soap. So I am not coming from a place where I'm biased toward one or the other. Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.

Where can you do that? SFIC is mostly close to double that.

 

[froggybean37]

I once had someone say "I make my own coffee every morning - it doesn't mean I get up at 2 am to harvest and roast the beans", which I thought was actually a neat metaphor!

We're all crafters, we're all artists. When I knit a sweater I can still say I made it even if I don't shear my own sheep - I don't really get the hostility between CP/HP/MP artists. We're all on the same team, I think - lets just be supportive and helpful to each other, regardless of what the route we take to get to a great bar of soap, as long as we're doing it in the best way we know how