Why oh WHY???

[commoncenz]

Omg...lol I wish you all well. I'm removing myself from this site, there is nothing of interest here for me.

Taking your ball and leaving? That's usually the approach of the intolerant. I for one would welcome you staying and actually providing some scientific backing (studies, etc.) to prove your point.

However, showing up here or anywhere and self-proclaiming yourself to be an "expert" on a subject without validating your credentials and then ridiculing members of a group for having beliefs in opposition to your own ... well that's usually not the way to get people to listen to what you're saying. Especially when all you're doing is repeating the same things over and over without providing supporting documentation.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...But of course, if there are crystals or pockets of concentrated lye in the soap, it can be very dangerous no matter what the "average" pH of the soap is. I didn't think of that. ..."

Oh, gosh, let's just slow down on the wealth of unsubstantiated theorizing, please!

It's time I jumped on this nonsense about this idea of lye pockets and crystals of lye in soap and the related opinion that "about 40% [of soaps] consistently test positive to undissolved lye". I am concerned that some of our newbie soapers will believe this silliness ... and here we go again with another stupid soaping myth that refuses to die.

NaOH does NOT remain as tiny crystals or pockets in properly made soap. It is such an incredibly reactive chemical that the last thing it will do is stay in small solid crystals or as small pockets of concentrated liquid if given any tiny opportunity to do something else. It would much rather react with water, react with fat, react with the CO2 in the air, and react with any additives to form new chemicals.

While it is true that some soap can have layers or pockets or droplets of caustic liquid in or on it -- but that will be true only IF the saponification process is not entirely done, or IF the soap is inadequately mixed, or IF the soap overheats, or IF the recipe contains too much water-phase liquid. These issues have nothing to do with properly made, fully saponified soap.

 

[notapantsday]

While it is true that some soap can have layers or pockets or droplets of caustic liquid in or on it -- but that will be true only IF the saponification process is not entirely done, or IF the soap is inadequately mixed, or IF the soap overheats, or IF the recipe contains too much water-phase liquid. These issues have nothing to do with properly made, fully saponified soap.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. At least I'm not.

My point was that it doesn't matter whether the soap has a high pH because of excess lye or because the soap itself is basic. We know that different fatty acids can cause different pH levels in the finished soap. So if you make a batch of soap that would usually have a rather low pH, but you use it before it has fully saponified and there are still small amounts of lye left, it's not necessarily more dangerous than a different soap that naturally has the same pH after full saponification. For the human body, it doesn't really make a difference where the high pH comes from (although there may be other relevant factors).

Susie pointed out that in a badly made batch, the lye might be concentrated in some spots, which would make it dangerous. I agreed and you basically repeated the same thing.

I don't see any disagreement here.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...My point was that it doesn't matter whether the soap has a high pH because of excess lye or because the soap itself is basic. ... if you use it before it has fully saponified and there are still small amounts of lye left, it's not necessarily more dangerous than a different soap that naturally has the same pH after full saponification. ... For the human body, it doesn't really make a difference where the high pH comes from..."

No, that is incorrect. There IS a difference. The products of a completed chemical reaction are different than a mix of reactants and products present during a chemical reaction. A soap that is almost but not quite fully saponified is much harsher and decidedly more irritating to the skin than the same soap after it is fully saponified. I know this to be true from direct personal experience as well as from my chemistry background.

But don't trust me -- try it yourself.

Carefully.

 

[Sphynxbabies]

Holy cow. Can you produce the data that confirms licking a bar of soap will tell you 100% safe for human use? You seem to want to make it a black & white issue. It's not. There are all sorts of variables. All I have said is we need to use whatever methods are available to us to keep soap safe for consumers and that zap testing alone is not acceptable. If you have read the thread you know that I combine the two and yes I am hard line on PH levels because without lab tests you can not possible insure the soap is safe. So here is my question, what is the harm of testing with Phenol? That you could be throwing out perfectly good soap? That is possibly true. And what I am saying is if there is ANY factor of risk that the soap may not be safe due to ANY influence of the hand crafted process it is not worth the risk to sell to the public. I never said I was an "expert" I think all I said was I was successful. FDA has soap makers in their cross hairs. All I'm saying is safeguard yourselves the best you can. Don't be standing there with the tongue test as your defense.

And SUSIE if you had read the posts you would have seen Phenolphthalein was what we were talking about.

 

[DeeAnna]

*** geek warning -- serious chemistry to follow ***

To Notapantsday --

Look, after thinking about this some more ... I wonder if what's confusing you is that an important point has been overlooked.

Saponification is not just about turning a bunch of fatty acids into fatty acid salts. There's more to it.

Saponification consists of two basic steps. The first is the difficult step of hydrolyzing (breaking up) a triglyceride fat into its main components -- 3 fatty acid molecules and 1 glycerin molecule. This is the part that takes so long when making soap, because this breakdown of the fats is a slow process. The final reaction of the fatty acids into their sodium salts (aka soap) is the simple, fast, and last step in the process.

It's only after saponification is complete -- when enough fatty acids have been created to react with all of the lye -- that you can actually consider soap finished. Only then can you consider soap to truly be the salt of a weak acid and look at the ability of this salt to maintain a dynamic balance between its ionized and molecular forms and act as a buffer to the pH.

Until the saponification reaction is complete, however, the hydroxide contributed by the lye is in excess. The fats have to be hydrolyzed FIRST before the fatty acids can "neutralize" the excess hydroxide. Until that happens, the "soap" is really not safe to use.

 

[Sphynxbabies]

*** geek warning -- serious chemistry to follow ***

I totally agree DeeAnna, properly made soap is safe. But who determines if it was properly made? We all take pride in our soap making skills and that our soaps are properly made and completely saponified unless there are telltale visual clues that alert us. But can you rule out soaps that appear to be completely saponified but in actuality may not? And how is it best to determine that?

 

[DeeAnna]

Sphinx -- I was the one to say it first and Susie was the second. So yell at me first, not her.

Susie and I are both reading your posts and we both get the context, but we are also concerned that new soapers reading SMF won't understand your meaning. We all have a responsibility to educate and inform, not to confuse or mislead.

Either use a more acceptable nickname for phenolpthalein or spell it out in full. "Phenol" is a highly dangerous chemical that is not remotely the same as phenolpthalein. The use of "phenol" as a shorthand for phenolpthalein is absolutely not acceptable.

***

And I am STILL waiting for you to provide valid justification about why your testing method is an acceptable way to determine excess alkalinity. I have trotted out chapter and verse about why it is not. Now cough up the hard data to support your claim or concede you don't have it.

 

[Sphynxbabies]

If there are Moderators viewing please remove me from this site.

 

[commoncenz]

If there are Moderators viewing please remove me from this site.

Your post prior to this was uncalled for, unprofessional and disrespectful. I agree with you. You should be banned.

However, in the event that you are not, since you don't like what's being said and don't want to see it, just log out and never come back. You have that option.

 

[Susie]

Screw you

Well...I am going with you have no valid scientific proof...again.

 

[shunt2011]

Screw you[/QUOTE]



Well, I am going with the assumption that you have no valid scientific proof...again.[/QUOTE]


This is unacceptable. All they are asking for is proof. You can't provide it and since you can't you feel is appropriate to attack someone.

Nobody attacked you.

You are in violation of forum rules. Do no threaten to leave. Just go!

 

[notapantsday]

A soap that is almost but not quite fully saponified is much harsher and decidedly more irritating to the skin than the same soap after it is fully saponified.

No argument there. But I'm sure you agree that the same soap has a higher pH before complete saponification - and all I'm saying is that it's the higher pH that is harmful or dangerous to the skin.

This is more or less the part I'm disagreeing with:

But what is most important, even if you insist on using this kind of test -- the fact remains that using a set pH to determine whether a soap is safe or not is wholly inaccurate. It totally overlooks the fact that soap pH depends on the fatty acid content of the soap. Pure oleic soaps and stearic soaps have the highest pH of 11.2 to 11.4. The other soaps -- myristic, lauric, palmitic, linoleic, and linolenic -- have pH values in the low to mid 10s. Source: Dunn, Kevin. Scientific Soapmaking. 2010. If all of the lye has been perfectly reacted leaving no excess alkalinity in any of these soaps, phenolpthalein in a dilute solution of these soaps WILL ALWAYS show pink.

My point is, if you have a pure stearic soap that is fully cured at pH 11.3, it's not any more or less dangerous than an incompletely cured soap with the same pH (due to a different FA composition). Because if you take that pure stearic soap and dissolve it in water, you get the same Na⁺ and OH⁻ ions that you get when you dissolve NaOH in water. The Na⁺ is coming from the fatty-acid-salt and the OH⁻ is left from the self-ionization of water after the FA⁻ has reacted with the H⁺ to an undissociated fatty acid. The concentration of OH⁻ has to be the same in both examples, because otherwise the pH would be different.

The exception being a badly made batch, where parts of the soap are maybe at 10.5 and other parts at 14. Even if it averages at 11.3, it's dangerous.

 

[Susie]

Is regular household vinegar dangerous with at pH of 2.3?

Is household ammonia dangerous with a pH of 12?

I have had both of these substances on my bare skin with no ill effects. I have also used liquid soap with a pH of 12.7 with no ill effects.

I have to differ with your opinion of whether a soap that has a pH of 11.3 is dangerous. It may not be the most pleasant soap you have used, but, if properly made and free of "free lye", it should not be harmful. Because pH is not a safe/not safe determination of a soap.

 

[notapantsday]

If you dissolve 80 mg of NaOH in one liter of water, you also end up with pH 11.3. Nothing but free lye.

In your opinion, what would it do to your skin if you used the same amounts that you use with soap?

I agree that free lye is harmful when it's concentrated in some spots (like crystals or pockets of lye water). However, in a properly made soap with evenly distributed lye, it should only be as dangerous as the pH it causes.

I'm not saying that pH is the only measure for soap safety. I mean, if you have razorblades in your soap it won't be safe even at pH7. There are lots of factors that contribute to the harshness of your soap.

But if you're concerned about residual lye, pH should be a good measure for safety as long as the lye is evenly distributed within your bar of soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...pH should be a good measure for safety as long as the lye is evenly distributed within your bar of soap..."

No, pH is not a good measure of safety under the circumstances in which handcrafted soapers make soap. Or even under the circumstances in which large commercial soap makers make soap. If pH was the panacea of safety people want it to be, then commercial soap makers would use pH as a test, and they don't!

I will concede that if a soap maker could absolutely know the raw ingredients going into the soap were highly consistent, then pH theoretically could be used once a soap maker established the correct pH for a fully saponified soap. That is not a realistic scenario. We don't and never will have absolute control over our raw ingredients -- the composition of fats varies depending on plant varieties, animal breeds, growing season variables, etc. and the purity of lye changes over time.

I've trotted out the table below some time ago, but it looks like it's time to trot it out again. The pH values of the commercial soaps range from 9.8 to 12.4 -- and I want to stress these are real lye-based soaps, not syndets (synthetic detergents). Each and every one of them would show a pink blush if tested with phenolpthalein, although the 12.4 soaps might blush pink and then go clear. Handcrafted soaps are no different, because they're made from the same lye and the same types of fats.

But enough. I've spent a lot of time trying to explain today -- especially Post 88 and this one. If my efforts are not meaningful to you, I am clearly not competent to fulfill this teachable moment.

 

[dibbles]

DeeAnna, thanks for looking out for us who still consider ourselves newbies. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and I know I am not alone.

Ditto for all the others who so selflessly and generously share your knowledge which you have learned through experimenting and experience. I wish I could name you all, but there are so many and I would hate to forget someone who regularly contributes and patiently answers questions, all simply for the love of soaping. You know who you are, and you are valued. All of you.

 

[Misschief]

Amen!

 

[notapantsday]

DeeAnna, I know that it's tough to explain things to a newbie and I really appreciate your effort. English is my second language, so sometimes I have a little trouble explaining myself. Just believe me that I'm not in this for the sake of discussion, but because I genuinely don't understand your point. If you want to leave it at that, it's fine. I'll keep my opinion and you keep yours and since I'm only using my soap for myself, you can relax - I will only burn off my own skin.

But in case you want to continue at some point...

The essence of what I'm trying to say is: "Free lye" is only dangerous if there is so much of it that it raises the soap's pH to a dangerous level.

I'm not trying to say that a "safe" pH guarantees a safe soap. I'm not saying that the pH is a direct measure of the harshness of a soap (as your table clearly shows - thanks for that great example).

All I'm saying is if your soap is at pH 11 and it makes your skin fall off, it's not the lye. At pH 11, there is no way to have a dangerous amount of free lye left in your soap because that would result in a higher pH.

 

[IrishLass]

I just wanted to point out (in case no one noticed) that in the dermatological study results DeeAnna posted above, the soap with the highest pH - Johnson's Baby Oat soap with a pH of 12.4- rated the lowest on the irritability index scale.

That just goes to show how tenuous it is to rely on pH as an indicator of soap safety. Dr. Kevin Dunn said pretty much the same thing in his book, 'Scientific Soapmaking' on page 371.

By the way- Dr. Dunn also devotes a few pages of his book in Chapter 4 to the Tongue Test (zap test). He considers it a valid test and gives instructions on how to do it properly.


IrishLass