why is my soap so odd looking

[dggriffi]

Take a look at this photo and help me understand whats going on here.

To much cook, to little. Not enough mixing?

this is a 35/35/30% pko/co/oo at 38% water and 10% fatting.
i used soapcalc.net to figure.

On edit: I should also mention that this was a CPHP process that cooked for about 30 minutes. I also added Ti-Tree and Lemon when the final product dropped below 117 degrees.

 

[dagmar88]

CP or HP?

 

[dggriffi]

CP or HP?

i replied in edit.

 

[honor435]

hmm, crock pot hp? ive done lots of hp in the crock, but not sure about that, did your mixture come to trace then you cooked? did it look gel-like at the end? then you mixed and added fo? My hp usually takes longer than that, how many ounce batch?
If youre doing hp i really would think about adding more oo, you will still get a hard bar, esp w hp, in a wk. castor adds some great qualities too.
Sometimes if you scrape the crock and its kinda crusty and drying and put that on top of your other mix in mold it will look chunky, how does it feel on your hands, washing> does it zap?

 

[Overthemoon]

Looks like some of my old cphp batches, overcooked. You're going to want to use fo and eo combinations that have high flash points so that you don't have to check the temperature of the mix. You want to pour the soap batter as soon as it isn't zapping so that it doesn't get overcooked or cooled.

 

[honor435]

flashpoints and hp doesnt matter, ive used all eos and fos at the hottest temps, it didnt do anything! there is a past post about flashpoints and how stupid it is.
So with that in mind, next time after the cook, dont let it cool down, add fo after it looks gellish and youve mixed it well, dont use the sides of crock for your main batch(scrape and make soap balls).
You can look at peoples hp pics and see how nice your soap WILL be!

 

[krissy]

i agree, you cooked too long. are you using the full water for your recipe? with HP you should. as long as there is no zap, it is still usable soap.

 

[dggriffi]

flashpoints and hp doesnt matter, ive used all eos and fos at the hottest temps, it didnt do anything! there is a past post about flashpoints and how stupid it is.
So with that in mind, next time after the cook, dont let it cool down, add fo after it looks gellish and youve mixed it well, dont use the sides of crock for your main batch(scrape and make soap balls).
You can look at peoples hp pics and see how nice your soap WILL be!

It makes sense that i might be letting it cool to much but the idea that flashpoints are stupid is itself stupid. adding low flashpoint EOs will result it boil off. You can watch it happen post a link to the thread

 

[dggriffi]

i agree, you cooked too long. are you using the full water for your recipe? with HP you should. as long as there is no zap, it is still usable soap.

well, what do you mean by "the full water" i went by the soap calculator at soapcal which has it set at 38%.

 

[Sunny]

I think this is what honor is talking about:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... lash+point

 

[honor435]

dd, some people add less water, like I do 33% in that box.
I dont believe that i "lost" any scent eo or fo adding to hot soap mixture.

 

[carebear]

flashpoints and hp doesnt matter, ive used all eos and fos at the hottest temps, it didnt do anything! there is a past post about flashpoints and how stupid it is.
So with that in mind, next time after the cook, dont let it cool down, add fo after it looks gellish and youve mixed it well, dont use the sides of crock for your main batch(scrape and make soap balls).
You can look at peoples hp pics and see how nice your soap WILL be!

It makes sense that i might be letting it cool to much but the idea that flashpoints are stupid is itself stupid. adding low flashpoint EOs will result it boil off. You can watch it happen post a link to the thread

find a definition of flash point. it's not the evaporation temperature. it's the temperature at which the fumes can be ignited with an open flame. It is NOT the temperature at which it will flash into its vapor phase

water evaporates as it boils - 'bout 212F . good luck igniting it, though.

And even though I know this from my years of chemistry and physics (which sucked), I took the trouble to discuss it with the chemists and perfumers where I work.

Honor - thank you for remembering my lecture/rant. I know the terms "flashing off" and flashpoint sound similar but they do NOT mean the same thing.

 

[dggriffi]

I think this is what honor is talking about:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... lash+point

For starters, flash point is NOT defined as the temperature at which a substance can be ignited but rather the temperature at which a substance changes to an ignitable gas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point)
This measure is only used for items which are volatile, which all EO's are. non volatiles have a vaporization point.

So, we can infer that this is also the temperature at which we will lose EO to vapor whether that vapor gets ignited or both.

As for the ph issues. while many people feel that soap is a base(alkali), the truth is that chemically speaking, the chemical reaction of soap making is more like:
Fats + Alkali -> Salt(soap) + Water

So in a sense, soap is a salt, so its PH can be anywhere on teh chart. In fact, i would suggest that the best soap has a PH of 7.

I know very little about soap but i do know a thing or two about chemistry. I just made two batches of lemon EO soap that came out as strong as can be.

 

[carebear]

I'm fortunate that I know a reasonable amount about both chemistry and about soap.

actually you could very easily lose much of the EO, or some of the components, well below the flash point.

and "changes to an ignitable gas" and " its fumes can be ignited" are hardly different.

And yes, that is the reaction of saponification (you left out the glycerin and heat), but that doesn't change the fact that soap is alkaline. Nor that citrus oils are not very stable. Get back to me in 6 months about your soap. I'd love to be wrong.

As for pH. You could suppose that but you'd be dead wrong. Soap is alkaline.

 

[IanT]

I think if I were you, and wanted to capture as much of the EO as possible without any loss of EO concentration to the lye monster, I would try to make either CPHP or CP unscented, then once the soap has set... maybe like 2 days later, I would rebatch it to add the EO that I was planning on making the batch with...

This could also make it easier to make large amounts of soap as you could have 100lb chunks you cut up/rebatch to make smaller batches when needed.

but thats just my 2cents...

 

[dggriffi]

I'm fortunate that I know a reasonable amount about both chemistry and about soap.

actually you could very easily lose much of the EO, or some of the components, well below the flash point.

and "changes to an ignitable gas" and " its fumes can be ignited" are hardly different.

And yes, that is the reaction of saponification (you left out the glycerin and heat), but that doesn't change the fact that soap is alkaline. Nor that citrus oils are not very stable. Get back to me in 6 months about your soap. I'd love to be wrong.

As for pH. You could suppose that but you'd be dead wrong. Soap is alkaline.

Well, im aware that i can still lose EO as the reaction will still be occurring even past zap.

as for the definition, the high point is that since these EOs are volatile, the flash point is the point at which the state change occurs in ernest. This would be equivalent to the vaporization point of a non-volatile and does not equate to teh point at which the gas burns which which is called the "fire point"

The only reason soap is Alkali is because of remaining free hydroxides. Fully reacted soap does not need to be. I would tend to agree that most soaps we make are Alkali, but that doesn't spell disaster for an acidic substance, especially once its hardened.

I guess i did leave out the glycerin, but it would also qualify as a salt in the products and heat is not present in the reaction because sodium hydroxide is exothermic needing no heat to react but releasing energy as it finds a more stable molecule.


I guess i will see how long my citrus soaps last. I know that they are strong now and i see no reason for an oil to break down rapidly when locked in the soap.

 

[dggriffi]

I think if I were you, and wanted to capture as much of the EO as possible without any loss of EO concentration to the lye monster, I would try to make either CPHP or CP unscented, then once the soap has set... maybe like 2 days later, I would rebatch it to add the EO that I was planning on making the batch with...

This could also make it easier to make large amounts of soap as you could have 100lb chunks you cut up/rebatch to make smaller batches when needed.

but thats just my 2cents...

i think that sounds like the rebatching process might itself destroy the EO due to temperature. what do you think about adding sugar or increasing water?

 

[carebear]

The only reason soap is Alkali is because of remaining free hydroxides. Fully reacted soap does not need to be.

you are mistaken, but because I'm not a fan of banging my head against a wall I will leave you to believe whatever you wish.

 

[dggriffi]

The only reason soap is Alkali is because of remaining free hydroxides. Fully reacted soap does not need to be.

you are mistaken, but because I'm not a fan of banging my head against a wall I will leave you to believe whatever you wish.

once again, thanks for the help you give.

 

[carebear]

The only reason soap is Alkali is because of remaining free hydroxides. Fully reacted soap does not need to be.

you are mistaken, but because I'm not a fan of banging my head against a wall I will leave you to believe whatever you wish.

once again, thanks for the help you give.

oh, no swea,t, sunshine. glad to be of help.