Why is Dr Bronner Baby Mild so soft

[Dahila]

Citric Acid
Make a gentler soap by using citric acid to lower the pH of handmade soap. Citric acid is commonly extracted from citrus fruits and used to create the fizzing in bath bombs and the tart white powdery coating on sour gummy candies. Appears as an acidic dry powder. 2 ounces net weight.
Instructions: Dissolve 1 part citric acid in 4 parts distilled water. After the formation of soap crystals in cold process soap (trace) or after cooking hot process soap, add the citric acid-water mixture at up to 1% of the weight of the fats. A small amount is very effective and too much can alter the saponification reaction

You are wrong, citric acid works as chellator in soaps, it has nothing to do with lowering the Ph. soap is from 9-12 ph and lowering the ph will leave you with nothing but a glob of fats. when adding Citric acid and not adding lye, you just get higher superfat of that soap, I think 10 g of CA neutralise 6 g of Naoh

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It's also a tiny amount suggested here. I use 2% citric acid alone to make the sodium citrate in my soaps. So 1% of a solution with 20% citric acid will be really low

 

[Dahila]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=538270&highlight=chelant#post538270 post by DeeAnna #62 will explain everything about workings of CA

 

[debra062013]

This question has to do with Bonner and all LS. At an event on Sat. I had a lady tell me she uses LS because there is no lye in LS. But KOH is used is that not a "lye" or a caustic agent used in Bonners and other LS?

I made a 100% CO soap and it was so wonderful when washing my hands. About 10 mins later I need lotion it was so drying. So I suppose we are all different which soap both bar or LS .

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

"Lye" is a caustic solution. Can be made with NaOH, KOH or whatever - they would all be lye

 

[debra062013]

Thanks that is what I thought. She told me her husband uses bar soap and it turns out he uses Fels. So I offered a sample and wished them a great day .

"Lye" is a caustic solution. Can be made with NaOH, KOH or whatever - they would all be lye

 

[dschiavo]

Vitamin E perhaps?

I make a mild liquid soap similar to Bronner's (not as thin), CO is less than 10% of oils, the rest is EVOO and the result is a very softening soap (great face wash). If I have to guess, hemp and jojoba would be a very small percentage as well. Maybe the Vitamin E adds that extra softness - I will try it it my next batch

 

[Margo]

Hello, did you read all the chemicals that are in their products? They claim to make Castile soap, but it's not authentic Castile soap. They are soooo wrong. I make my own, natural shampoos and soaps which contain no detergents

No need for citric acid in my soaps which have a ph of 7

 

[sephera]

I make a mild liquid soap similar to Bronner's (not as thin), CO is less than 10% of oils, the rest is EVOO and the result is a very softening soap (great face wash). If I have to guess, hemp and jojoba would be a very small percentage as well. Maybe the Vitamin E adds that extra softness - I will try it it my next batch

Sounds good do you care to share?

 

[Susie]

No need for citric acid in my soaps which have a ph of 7

That is not possible. To lower the pH that low, you would break your soap into fatty acids floating over an alkali solution. How are you measuring the pH?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Or share this magically recipe. Dr Kevin Dunn is begging for people who have a pH7 soap to send one to him for testing

 

[sephera]

Hi if soap is PH 7 it ceases to be soap right? Dove beauty bar is 7.

 

[Susie]

Hi if soap is PH 7 it ceases to be soap right? Dove beauty bar is 7.

The subject here is liquid soap. And Dove Beauty Bar contains more than soap:

http://www.dove.com/us/en/washing-and-bathing/beauty-bar/white-beauty-bar.html

Ingredients
Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Sodium Tallowate Or Sodium Palmitate, Lauric Acid, Sodium Isethionate, Water, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Cocoate Or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Fragrance, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Edta, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Titanium Dioxide (Ci 77891).

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Citric Acid
Make a gentler soap by using citric acid to lower the pH of handmade soap. Citric acid is commonly extracted from citrus fruits and used to create the fizzing in bath bombs and the tart white powdery coating on sour gummy candies. Appears as an acidic dry powder. 2 ounces net weight.
Instructions: Dissolve 1 part citric acid in 4 parts distilled water. After the formation of soap crystals in cold process soap (trace) or after cooking hot process soap, add the citric acid-water mixture at up to 1% of the weight of the fats. A small amount is very effective and too much can alter the saponification reaction

I can confirm that the basic idea has some practical validity in making liquid soap.

It makes a difference whether you add the acid at the beginning or at the end. At the beginning it will create potassium citrate and cause less oil to be saponified. At the end it could reverse the saponification reaction to an extent and release free fatty acids. If you are making liquid soap with no lye discount, it could also scavenge any excess potassium hydroxide. This suggestion is to add it after saponification.

I have heard a myth that pH strips don't work properly with soap. They work as well with soap as with anything. They are more approximate than some other methods but quite functional and potentially useful. It's a rather good idea to be familiar with the normal pH of the recipes you make, especially if you work with no lye discount. That way if you are working with new oils or especially if you change your potassium hydroxide source, you can make sure that nothing is out of whack. Depending on the source, the purity of KOH can vary across a range of about 10 points, and you can't necessarily depend on the supplier to tell you what you're buying.

In have not used citric acid for these purposes. I use an 88% lactic acid solution, but the principle is the same and the result is potassium lactate. I have used it to correct a slight lye excess, and I have also tried it to change the pH after the soap is made. I don't know what the exact limit is, but I can go from pH 10 down to 9 with no impact on the clarity or lathering properties of the product.

 

[IrishLass]

I have heard a myth that pH strips don't work properly with soap. They work as well with soap as with anything. They are more approximate than some other methods but quite functional and potentially useful.

Would you be willing to elaborate in more detail on what you mean your above statements? I'm asking because the information I have in my notes (albeit second hand sourced from Kathy Miller's site: http://www.millersoap.com/phtome.html) mentions that pH strips can often be unreliable with soap because the surfactant nature of soap can throw the indicators of some pH strips off by as much as 2 to 3 units (which I have no reason to doubt due to the several instances of soapers down through the years on the forum who have claimed their CP soaps tested with strips come out with a pH of 7....not to mention my own experiences using paper strips).

Having said that, though, the key phrase to take away from the above paragraph is, "the surfactant nature of soap can throw the indicators of some pH strips off by as much as 2 to 3 units (emphasis on the word 'some'). I have a set of paper strips which have shown themselves to be unreliable when testing my soap (false neutral readings), but I also happen to own a set of the plastic, lab-grade Macherey-Nagel pH strips, and they do seem to work quite well with my soap. I normally zap-test my soap, but on those occasions when I've use the strips, I always make a 1% soap solution first before testing, and the Macherey-Nagel's have always come out with much more realistic readings for lye-based soap- somewhere between 9 and 10.


IrishLass

 

[topofmurrayhill]

I also happen to own a set of the plastic, lab-grade Macherey-Nagel pH strips, and they do seem to work quite well with my soap. I normally zap-test my soap, but on those occasions when I've use the strips, I always make a 1% soap solution first before testing, and the Macherey-Nagel's have always come out with much more realistic readings for lye-based soap- somewhere between 9 and 10.

Yep, I have only used the Macherey-Nagel strips and they have no problem with soap. Kevin Dunn recommends pH strips for anyone who doesn't wan't to zap test. For anyone who's interested in the pH of their liquid soap, I guess those are the ones to get.

If you have slightly lye heavy soap that's already diluted, that's about the only way to tell for sure because it's not going to zap. Even very lye heavy liquid soap will only give you a tingle when diluted. Certainly you can zap test the paste, but the best way to fix the soap is still to dilute it and then make your adjustments. The strips can be useful for that if you have experience with how your recipe normally turns out.

The recipe I posted in the photo section normally reads about 9.5 - 10.0. I can acidify it to 9 without any trouble if I want. And one time when I made the mistake of using more KOH than usual, thinking maybe it had lost strength, I got a reading of 11 or a bit more and was able to fix it.

 

[Sapo]

If you are making liquid soap with no lye discount, it could also scavenge any excess potassium hydroxide. This suggestion is to add it after saponification.

In have not used citric acid for these purposes. I use an 88% lactic acid solution, but the principle is the same and the result is potassium lactate. I have used it to correct a slight lye excess, and I have also tried it to change the pH after the soap is made. I don't know what the exact limit is, but I can go from pH 10 down to 9 with no impact on the clarity or lathering properties of the product.

How to determine how much acidifier to add in the case of a suspected KOH excess?

Kevin Dunn recommends pH strips for anyone who doesn't wan't to zap test.

How do pH strips indicate excess KOH? I guess if I made a certain recipe 10x times, with a pH of 10.5 every single time, and on the 11th time it's 11, I know something is up? I don't see how they can indicate actual KOH excess any other way.

For selling purposes, in order to absolutely guarantee that there is absolutely no excess KOH present, would you recommend reducing the pH to (in the case of your example) 9 with every batch?

Edit: oh and another enthusiastic +1 for you to share the process of the soap in the photo gallery .

 

[topofmurrayhill]

How do pH strips indicate excess KOH? I guess if I made a certain recipe 10x times, with a pH of 10.5 every single time, and on the 11th time it's 11, I know something is up? I don't see how they can indicate actual KOH excess any other way.

For selling purposes, in order to absolutely guarantee that there is absolutely no excess KOH present, would you recommend reducing the pH to (in the case of your example) 9 with every batch?

That's exactly right. If you're familiar with the way your soap normally turns out, the strips can be useful for quality control. The particular fatty acid profile in a given recipe should bring the soap to a similar pH each time you make it. If the strips indicate a significantly different alkalinity, it's one indication that something might have gone wrong.

I don't have a recommendation at this point for whether to acidify liquid soap even if it comes out properly. That technique releases some free fatty acids and might make the soap more mild, but I can't say yet whether it's worth doing. I experimented with it a little recently, but the weather has been changing and the humidity fluctuating, which makes it harder than usual to compare soaps.

 

[Sapo]

I don't have a recommendation at this point for whether to acidify liquid soap even if it comes out properly. That technique releases some free fatty acids and might make the soap more mild, but I can't say yet whether it's worth doing. I experimented with it a little recently, but the weather has been changing and the humidity fluctuating, which makes it harder than usual to compare soaps.

Not necessarily asking because I want to make it more mild, just to be extra sure people don't get exposed to any excess KOH. Since we're on a Bronner's thread, this is how their label looks like, and I intend to shamelessly steal the bold bit :mrgreen::

Ingredients: bla*, bla* bla*, Potassium Hydroxide**, bla bla
*Certified organic ingredient
** None remains in the final product.

And I suppose the only true way to be sure that statement is true, given the fluctuation of oil properties and KOH concentration, is to acidify down to a certain level where you are 100% there isn't possible to have any leftover KOH. I think the limit to avoid having to do microbiology tests on the soap is a pH equal or above 9.5 (will ask and make sure soon). Bronners has a pH of 8.9, just for comparisson. Apparently shelf life isn't affected all that much by the process, given that it has the "usable for at least 36 months after being opened" logo thing on it.

 

[Susie]

Not necessarily asking because I want to make it more mild, just to be extra sure people don't get exposed to any excess KOH. Since we're on a Bronner's thread, this is how their label looks like, and I intend to shamelessly steal the bold bit :mrgreen::

Ingredients: bla*, bla* bla*, Potassium Hydroxide**, bla bla
*Certified organic ingredient
** None remains in the final product.

And I suppose the only true way to be sure that statement is true, given the fluctuation of oil properties and KOH concentration, is to acidify down to a certain level where you are 100% there isn't possible to have any leftover KOH. I think the limit to avoid having to do microbiology tests on the soap is a pH equal or above 9.5 (will ask and make sure soon). Bronners has a pH of 8.9, just for comparisson. Apparently shelf life isn't affected all that much by the process, given that it has the "usable for at least 36 months after being opened" logo thing on it.

The way YOU make sure you have no "leftover" KOH is to use a superfat. Nothing difficult to figure out. You just put a 1-3 in that % line, and you know there is no leftover KOH.