Why did this seize?

[RacerSpuffy]

I think you're right about it being a combination -- too much salt, a crappy recipe to start with, and who knows about that AVJ? No telling why omitting it helped, but it did. Can't wait to get that sweet orange EO to help slow things down a little, because I'm bound to run into other ingredients that behave badly. I'm gonna take KiwiMoose's advice and add a little to every batch, just in case.

Wait until you try making Pine Tar soap!

 

[Obsidian]

I've never had citrus EO slow trace either but I have ran across a couple FO that thinned the batter out after it reached trace.

 

[penelopejane]

@penelopejane You are so right, it is frustrating, and disappointing too. Since the CA was already in the AVJ, and the label only said the AVJ was "99.8% pure", I didn't add extra lye. I didn't know the AC would accelerate! The first batch seized hard before the AC was added though, possibly because of too much salt. I am definitely reconsidering the salt! I've also reduced the castor oil to 5% for my next batch. Thanks for your directions on using beeswax. I've used it before in HP but didn't know anything about adding it to CP.

@Susie That seems to be the consensus here. As much as I love the idea, I think I'm done with salt for now.

Me too, but I kinda ran right past that "within reason" part and kept going to "let's see how bad I can screw this up" lol! I have learned a ton of good info in a short period of time, but mostly what I'm learning is how much I still don't know.

Today is a long work day, so no soaping till tomorrow. I'll firm up my plans tonight, cross my fingers, and hope I've learned enough to make a decent batch.

You might feel like you are getting conflicting advice from people but the thing is small amounts of additives, or different trace, or soaping temperature variations can all change a recipe hugely depending on the fats used. So for your particular recipe you have to work out what works.

Personally I love salt and use a lot in my soap but I only use sea salt I never use Himalayan salt. If that’s all you have I’d suggest you stop using it altogether. Table salt with iodine is ok in soap but it leaves an undissolved film in the water which might cause an odd swirl in the soap. Barely noticeable and far, far better than Himalayan salt. I go for all natural additives in my soap so salt works well for me.
Definitely drop the castor oil to 5% maximum. Higher amounts can accelerate trace just by itself. When using AC take your batter to emulsion and let the AC do it’s thing for a while.

AC stickblended in will be much darker using the same quantity of AC as hand stirring it in.

 

[PieBorg]

@cmzaha Still waiting for the new thermometer. Deliveries are running a little slow lately, but I believe you and others who say that temperature makes a difference. I also think I was wrong to accuse the AVJ of causing my problems. It sounds like it was most likely the salt, maybe too much castor oil, and some AC thrown in just to make sure it seized, lol! It's a novel idea to me that the batter might thin out a little after it warms up. I'd be afraid to find out! With my luck, it'll go rock hard and stay that way while I'm waiting for it to thin out.

@RacerSpuffy LOL! Not something on my radar at all!

@penelopejane Yep, reduced the castor, decided to use that big bag of Himalayan salt at the table instead of in the soap, and definitely not planning to go past emulsion. Any trace at all seems to be too much. That's great information about AC getting darker after being stick blended. I was wondering why mine was slate gray, thinking I didn't add enough. Is it better to add it to the oils before adding the liquid, or wait until after emulsion?

Gonna give this one more try tomorrow, now that I have lots of ideas for fixing the problem. Again, many thanks to everyone who offered help! If I ever get a decent bar, I'll post pics.

 

[Arimara]

@PieBorg

 

[penelopejane]

[USER=19729]@penelopejane Yep, reduced the castor, decided to use that big bag of Himalayan salt at the table instead of in the soap, and definitely not planning to go past emulsion. Any trace at all seems to be too much. That's great information about AC getting darker after being stick blended. I was wondering why mine was slate gray, thinking I didn't add enough. Is it better to add it to the oils before adding the liquid, or wait until after emulsion?

Gonna give this one more try tomorrow, now that I have lots of ideas for fixing the problem. Again, many thanks to everyone who offered help! If I ever get a decent bar, I'll post pics.[/USER]

I mix my AC with a bit of oil from the recipe (specifically from the part of the batch that I am colouring with it). Then, when it is wetted up, I add it to the oils. I would suggest you do not wait till after emulsion to add it as it will move your trace.

 

[Peggyrae]

It's how you make brine soap (soleseife). I don't want a "spa bar" with a lot of undissolved salt. It's okay to add up to 20-something percent of salt to the lye water (I forget the exact percentage), as long as it's below the saturation level. I'm okay at 15%. Yes, it's to harden the bar.

I will have to do some research on solseife soap. It is the soap typically made with seawater right? Is there a good website or video on making it?

 

[atiz]

I will have to do some research on solseife soap. It is the soap typically made with seawater right? Is there a good website or video on making it?

There are quite a few threads here about soleseife...
The making process is not that different, you just dissolve salt in your lye water. You can either do the split method (50% lye concentration with pure water, and dissolve as much salt as you can in the rest of the water), or do it in the same pot -- in that case, you should dissolve the salt first since it's less soluable than lye is.
It makes a nice, smooth, hard bar in my experience.

 

[PieBorg]

So, another batch is in the mold, this time without salt or AVJ. Again, it accelerated from emulsion to very thick pudding in the blink of an eye, but this time, I know what the culprit is. It's the tea tree oil! Whodathunkit? The batter was nice and loose with just the oils, GM powder, and lye water, but as soon as I added the tea tree... BAM! Scrambling to get the charcoal mixed in and glop it into the mold before it completely solidified.

Has anyone else ever had tea tree oil accelerate like that? I only added one ounce in 26 ounces of oil. Castor was also only one ounce. The rest was EVOO, palm/soybean shortening, and coconut.

Of course, I bought a ginormous bottle of tea tree, but it won't go to waste since I mix it with almond oil and use it as a bath oil. Lots of people use tea tree in their soap, so I'm thinking there's something wrong with this brand. Maybe it's too concentrated or something. I don't know.

I'm gonna move on to other recipes now that I have a bazillion bars of messed up tea tree with GM and AC. Next on the list is camouflage soap for my son, no tea tree invited!

Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread! You guys are awesome!

 

[Arimara]

@PieBorg where did you get the tea tree oil from?

 

[PieBorg]

@Arimara I got it from Walmart.com.

 

[Arimara]

@PieBorg Do you have a pic or a link of the brand? If you must get an EO from a store, looke for NOW at the least. But in truth, I recommend CamdenGrey as an EO supplier since you're on the East Coast.

 

[PieBorg]

@Arimara https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sun-Esse...ree-Essential-Oil-Aromatherapy-16oz/122441363

I'm not on the East Coast, but thanks for the recommendations. What is "NOW"? I've been thinking I could just HP this particular recipe and avoid all the hassle with acceleration.

The good news is that the bars are really, really hard. I just unmolded them this afternoon, but they're not sticky or soft at all. I'll blame the oils for that. So it could be, as others have suggested, that I didn't need the salt after all.

 

[penelopejane]

@Arimara https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sun-Esse...ree-Essential-Oil-Aromatherapy-16oz/122441363

I'm not on the East Coast, but thanks for the recommendations. What is "NOW"? I've been thinking I could just HP this particular recipe and avoid all the hassle with acceleration.

The good news is that the bars are really, really hard. I just unmolded them this afternoon, but they're not sticky or soft at all. I'll blame the oils for that. So it could be, as others have suggested, that I didn't need the salt after all.

For me I use salt not to increase the immediate hardness of a soap but for the long term hardness and longevity of my soap. I guess you will have to test your soap each week to compare the different recipes.

 

[Arimara]

NOW Tea Tree Oil. It is sold in a lot of health food stores. Your location did say Georgia so I thought that company would be great.

 

[PieBorg]

Also - try adding some citrus Eos. While the fragrance won't hold in CP, they will help to slow trace.

The sweet orange EO arrived, and this may be a dumb question, but just to be sure, you add it after blending in the lye mixture and before any other additives, right? How much does it slow trace? You probably already answered this, but I can't find it -- how much to add ppo?

For me I use salt not to increase the immediate hardness of a soap but for the long term hardness and longevity of my soap. I guess you will have to test your soap each week to compare the different recipes.

Yep, that's what I had in mind. Now that I have a batch without salt that I can compare to the others, it'll be easier to see which I like best. So far, I'm more impressed with the batch that doesn't have salt, which was unmolded today. I don't know about longevity yet, but this batch is already harder than the ones that have been curing for a week now.

@Arimara Yes, I'm in Georgia, but I'm about as far as you can get from the coast and still be in Georgia, lol! I'm about an hour's drive from a health food store, so I'll look online and see if I can find that brand. Thanks again for the recommendation!

 

[KiwiMoose]

The sweet orange EO arrived, and this may be a dumb question, but just to be sure, you add it after blending in the lye mixture and before any other additives, right? How much does it slow trace? You probably already answered this, but I can't find it -- how much to add ppo?

Aww geee - now you're getting technical! I'm a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants kinda soaper. I usually use 3.5% overall of fragrance, so if I'm using a floral I will split it (for a 2 pound batch) by doing 25 - 30g of the FO and 10 - 5 g of the EO accordingly.

 

[Susie]

I have used a LOT of citrus EOs in CP before I decided that they would not stick. I have never, ever found them to slow trace. Less water and soaping cooler slows trace.

 

[PieBorg]

@Susie It's ok if it doesn't stick, just hoping to have something that might buy me a little time.

I'm still waiting for my thermometer to arrive. For now, all I can do is go by touch, but I'll try soaping closer to room temperature. I'm guessing it's been around 90 - 100 F, barely warm to the touch. I've been judging the temperature the way I used to judge my kids' temps. If the mixtures feel about the same as a perfectly healthy kid's forehead, then it's time to soap. But if it feels like, "Holy crap, let's get you to the doctor," then I wait and let it cool some more. That's the best I can do for now.

I've been using a 33% solution. What concentration do you use? What should I aim for?

@KiwiMoose No worries! I'll fly by the seat of my pants too and see how it works out. I'm hoping that it doesn't slow trace as much as it counters any tendency to accelerate, because I kinda like getting to trace in a hurry. It's getting any further that I'm in no rush about, lol!

 

[KiwiMoose]

@KiwiMoose No worries! I'll fly by the seat of my pants too and see how it works out. I'm hoping that it doesn't slow trace as much as it counters any tendency to accelerate, because I kinda like getting to trace in a hurry. It's getting any further that I'm in no rush about, lol!

Oh - I've never had slow trace in my life! Just a slower version of fast

@Susie - I always use 30% lye concentration, but my water is approx 32% of oil weight. Do you think this is too much water? I have read other posts and I thought the jury was still out on whether more or less water can slow trace. The discussion concluded that people had success with both methods.

Also - I was reading something Ione had written ( from Eve's Garden Soapery) and she talked about the ratio of saturated to unsaturated fats in her recipe. After reading that, I have made a special recipe just for 'Ione' Swirls that is 43/57% saturated/unsaturated, whereas my regular recipe is 50/50. I think Ione uses more like a 40/60 for hers.