Why all the Castile &/ Bastile Slime Hate?

[Zany_in_CO]

I have customers seek me out for this soap, and it's thanks to you!

That's music to my ears. You are so very welcome!

 

[bluebirdwing]

Here is a video of a castile I made. This is after a year cure

This same thing is happening to my 25% pomace soap, not this much but its the same thing. My soap is only cured for 2 weeks, I took a small piece to test it out how much it will lather at this time period. I was wondering what is this thing, since I am a newbie cp soaper and this is the first time I ever saw soap behaving like this. I will have to see if this thing will happen again even after 4 weeks curing time.

One question, even after full 4-5 weeks cure, this slime wont go away, if I reduce the Pomace in next batch will it work out?

 

[Obsidian]

This same thing is happening to my 25% pomace soap, not this much but its the same thing. My soap is only cured for 2 weeks, I took a small piece to test it out how much it will lather at this time period. I was wondering what is this thing, since I am a newbie cp soaper and this is the first time I ever saw soap behaving like this. I will have to see if this thing will happen again even after 4 weeks curing time.

One question, even after full 4-5 weeks cure, this slime wont go away, if I reduce the Pomace in next batch will it work out?

25% pomace shouldn't have caused slime, what else is in your recipe?

 

[bluebirdwing]

25% pomace shouldn't have caused slime, what else is in your recipe?

coconut oil (25%), palm oil (40%), cocoa butter (5%), castor oil (5%)

 

[earlene]

Any other ingredients? Superfat percentage? Additives? Lye Concentration or Water to Lye ratio? Those are all part of the recipe and can play a factor, particularly if you used a lot of water in the recipe and perhaps used a higher superfat.

But you are right. 2 weeks is a little soon to know how your finished soap is going to feel after a proper cure. But, I agree, I would not expect slime once well cured.

 

[bluebirdwing]

Any other ingredients? Superfat percentage? Additives? Lye Concentration or Water to Lye ratio? Those are all part of the recipe and can play a factor, particularly if you used a lot of water in the recipe and perhaps used a higher superfat.

But you are right. 2 weeks is a little soon to know how your finished soap is going to feel after a proper cure. But, I agree, I would not expect slime once well cured.

I dont know how to calculate the percentage of lye, I didnt save that part from lye calculator. But the amount of water & lye I used are
Water 265 g (after 10% water discount)
Lye 147 g

Also, I used stearic acid 20g (2%)

 

[earlene]

I dont know how to calculate the percentage of lye, I didnt save that part from lye calculator. But the amount of water & lye I used are
Water 265 g (after 10% water discount)
Lye 147 g

Also, I used stearic acid 20g (2%)

The lye calculator does that for you, but uses a 'default' setting that you can change if you so desire. If you saved the recipe in the calculator you can look it up and find out the lye concentration, or re-create it. I tried to do that myself, but was unable because you have not listed 100% of your oils.

All I see is this, AND without actual measurements:

40% Palm oil (palm oil, not PKO, and not palm olein, correct?)
25% Olive Oil, pomace
5% Cocoa Butter
5% Castor Oil
2% Stearic Acid
77%

Total percentage of oils: 77%, therefore 23% is missing, as the total has to come to 100%

Then your NaOH & Water are measured and not in percentages, which is another reason I can't re-create this recipe in a lye calculator to help you troubleshoot.

147 g lye (NaOH, correct?)
265 g water "after a 10% water discount" - I am confused. How do you know how to calculate the percentage of water, but not know how to calculate the percentage of lye?

So what was the other 23% of oils in your recipe? If the additional 23% of oils were high oleic oils, such as HO Sunflower, HO Safflower, HO Canola, Almond, Canola, Avocado or any of the other oils shown on the list below, then that would also contribute to slime.

Reference link: oils sorted by Oleic acid content

And what superfat did you have the soap set to? If it was by default, it was probably a 5% SF.

If that is the case, and your total oils was 1125 grams, here is what your recipe may have looked like if the remaining 23% was HO Safflower oil:

Whereas, if your remaining 23% of oils was something low in Oleic Acid, such as Coconut Oil, and your total oils was 1045 grams, then the numbers would have changed to something like this:

Aha! I just noticed a clue as to your total oils. 20 grams (Stearic Acid) = 2%. So that means you used 1000 grams of oils. So I wasn't far off in my reverse engineering of your recipe. There are some minor differences in different lye calculators that may account for that, or it could simply be my chosen oil to fill in for your missing 23%.

 

[bluebirdwing]

I tried to do that myself, but was unable because you have not listed 100% of your oils.

You missed coconut oil:

coconut oil (25%), palm oil (40%), cocoa butter (5%), castor oil (5%)

I didnt add stearic acid to oil list, since I thought it as just an additive(classic newbie mistake, I know).

I used total of 1040g of oils, excluding stearic acid. And superfat was 5%.
yes, Lye is NaOH

265 g water "after a 10% water discount" - I am confused. How do you know how to calculate the percentage of water, but not know how to calculate the percentage of lye?

I just reduced 10% of total water mentioned by lye calculator. I thought lye concentration calculation is complicated. I think I used the default 33.33% mentioned in the calculator.

 

[ChristinaS1]

I'm certain a high percentage of oleic acid is required for a soap to produce slime. IMO, soap with about 60% oleic acid or more will have a high slime factor.

I'd say soap with 50 to 60% oleic acid is very likely to produce slime, but in this in-between gray area, I suspect the other fatty acids in the soap might alter the slime factor some. I'd guess that lauric and myristic acids (coconut, palm kernel) might reduce the slime factor. My guess is palmitic and stearic acids (lard, palm) might not change the slime factor a lot. I haven't tested this idea, however, so it's just a guess.

Soap with less than 50% oleic acid very likely won't produce slime. Most of my soap recipes have roughly 45% oleic acid, and the soap doesn't do slime at all.

New soapmaker here. This is my first post. I am eager to prevent slime. To expand on DeeAnna's comment, I have read that linoleic and linolenic acid also contribute to slime formation. A rule of thumb states that those two together should not add up to more than 15% of the total but I am not sure if the reason for the rule is to prevent DOS/rancidity or slime. What is your guess: would adding oleic, linoleic, and linolenic acid percentages together and making sure the total does not go above 60% prevent slime?

If linoleic + linolenic = 15% and I add 45% oleic would the soap be at high risk of DOS/rancidity? If so, would reducing the percentage of SF--or eliminating it altogether--prevent it? Or would other measures still need to be taken? The reason I ask is that I purchased some soybean oil to add to my recipes, to help keep oleic levels down, but soybean oil is high in linoleic and linolenic, and it is easy to hit that 15% ceiling, especially if there is also some canola oil in the mix...I am trying to keep my costs down by sticking to ingredients I can get at the grocery store. Thank you for your help.

 

[DeeAnna]

The 15% rule of thumb is not a concept intended to minimize slime. This RoT came about as a way to minimize the chance of rancidity (aka DOS). The 15% RoT is an empirical value that many people (including me) use as a general guide. It's not a scientifically determined number.

"...If linoleic + linolenic = 15% and I add 45% oleic would the soap be at high risk of DOS/rancidity? If so, would reducing the percentage of SF--or eliminating it altogether--prevent it?..."

I don't think anyone tries to combine the 15%RoT percentage with the oleic acid % as a predictor of the tendency for rancidity. Not sure where you're getting that idea.

Oleic acid is a monounsaturated fatty acid. Linoleic and linolenic are polyunsaturated fatty acids. While oleic acid is more prone to becoming rancid than the saturated fats, it's much less prone to becoming rancid than the polyunsaturated acids.

Very high amounts of superfat probably does increase the chance of rancidity, but that is not a surefire outcome. Low or no superfat may reduce the chance of rancidity, but does not absolutely prevent it.

Fatty acids oxidize and become rancid. Soap contains fatty acids. Therefore soap will always be prone to rancidity.

I get the feeling you're thinking oxidation and rancidity are triggered by the types of fatty acids alone. While some fatty acids are more prone to oxidation and rancidity, ALL fatty acids can become rancid. Just some "go off" faster and more easily than others.

But even a lye-heavy soap that contains only saturated fatty acids can become rancid if the conditions are right -- metallic contamination, exposure to light, high humidity and warmth, etc. Even commercial soap makers aren't exempt from this problem. They typically add chelators and antioxidants to lengthen the shelf life of their products.

 

[ChristinaS1]

Thank you for clarifying DeeAnna. So the 15% rule of thumb is directed at reducing the risk of rancidity only.

As mentioned, I read somewhere that linoleic and linolenic also contribute to slime, so that is why I was asking if they should be considered together with oleic in recipe design (when trying to avoid slime).

I forgot there for a second that as a monosaturated fat oleic is less prone to rancidity.

I did not realize that even saturated fats like coconut oil can go rancid. Good to know. Thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

It's more accurate to think of "saturated fatty acids" in a fat when talking about fats in general. There is no such thing as a fully "saturated fat" if you're talking about fats produced in nature.

Even coconut oil contains a variety of fatty acids -- mostly saturated FAs but also unsaturated FAs. The proportions of saturated, monounsaturated, and polyunsaturated fatty acids obviously vary a lot from fat to fat -- compare coconut oil to walnut oil for example -- but it's important to keep in mind that no fat made in nature is just one type of fatty acid.

The main reason why modern coconut oil has a long shelf life is due to how it is refined and processed today. Back a century ago or so, coconut oil went rancid quickly due to the way it was handled in that era. The soap makers of the time recognized coconut oil for how easily it lathered, but they also had to deal with the pungent odor that lingered in the finished soap. We're lucky!

 

[JuLeeRenee]

If you want Castile with no slime, try this:
ZANY'S NO SLIME CASTILE

I used your recipe not too long ago to make my mom some. She keeps asking for an all olive oil soap.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

The 50% oleic soap I make doesn’t make slime unless I work at it. If I leave it sitting in water, the bottom will swell and look a bit gel-like. It would likely make slime if I used it that way, but I don’t.

This is one of my earliest recipes and it‘s still one of my favorites. Using my hard water, the soap makes a soft, foamy lather without the heavier creaminess that is produced by a soap that has palmitic + stearic > 25 or so. It’s the soap I like best at my bathroom sink.

 

[ChristinaS1]

The 50% oleic soap I make doesn’t make slime unless I work at it. If I leave it sitting in water, the bottom will swell and look a bit gel-like. It would likely make slime if I used it that way, but I don’t.

This is one of my earliest recipes and it‘s still one of my favorites. Using my hard water, the soap makes a soft, foamy lather without the heavier creaminess that is produced by a soap that has palmitic + stearic > 25 or so. It’s the soap I like best at my bathroom sink.

View attachment 70678

Nice looking recipe. What is your SF for this recipe? Thanks.