What is a "vegan soap"?

[kumudini]

One of the things that I like about this forum is that we can disagree about (eg) the use of animal fats without calling each other names.

Dahila, I love your style of writing, I think you do a great job of getting your point across! V, if I were ever to be a vegan (not in this lifetime, I am afraid) you are the type I would be. I guess I just think that as long as there is a market for eating meat products - and really see the contra as being a long time in the future, if ever - it is not a morally improper choice to be as environmentally and socially conscious as possible using as much as we can of it. ETA: I have not gotten the idea that you *are* judging, either, just explaining your own choices.

not_ally, after reading some threads about lard and tallow use, possibly being more ethical and responsible choice,I have actually considered using animal fat in soap. I just couldn't come to a decision. One can always say that since the animals are anyways being killed for meat we should use any and all by products to make their sacrifice worth while. I wish none were actually sacrificed. I know it's never going to happen, not in a thousand years. Could the meat industry become more humane? I doubt it. Could humans try not to waste the meats and other animal products? They can if they put their mind to, but that's not going to happen either. The whole meat industry and dairy industry and in general the food scene in the world has become such that there is no regard for life other than humans and their pets. It's no longer geared just towards feeding the hungry, has gone way beyond that. It's the 'might is right' kind of attitude. Fat is being used because it could be, I doubt if it was ethical concerns that started it. I have never driven the meat market. And I am not going to now. I used to bake a lot until I realized how those eggs and butter and the dairy cream are produced. So no more. I did finish up all dairy products and eggs that were in my home even after deciding to go vegan. That's I think as far as I could go about not letting things go to waste.
Just the kind of thoughts that go through vegetarian/ vegans minds. I hope I have not crossed any lines here. If I did, my humble request to mods, please delete it.

 

[JayJay]

Good points, all.

It stems as from the idea that, while we look at oils as oils, they are in fact made up of proportions of the same things to various degrees. If you took lard and cocoa butter, broke them down in the the fatty acids and used it in a soap, there would be little difference.

I find that a jolly interesting idea and a jolly interesting way of looking at our soaps.

Aren't there unsaponifiables present in oils? I just assumed that whatever extra there is in an oil is what gives it its uniqueness. This is my non-scientific, and inexperienced conceptualization.

I used to be a vegetarian with a dairy allergy, which ended up looking a lot like veganism. But my reasoning was less about avoiding contact with animal products more along the lines of not wanting to support certain "farming" practices. If the animal was raised outside, eating its own natural diet, being allowed to lead a normal life, then I was okay with the idea that it would be killed and eaten. It's the Food chain. Now that I have more access to what I consider good meat. I am happy to eat it every day.

Even in my veggie days, I wouldn't have considered lard an issue. But as you can tell, I was not die hard about avoiding animal products.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

What is a "vegan soap"?

See, now I'm thinking of a piggy liposuction machine to humanely harvest the fat without killing the pig

I also agree with the quality of life issue. While there is no totally humane way to kill, there are ways that are better than others especially when it follows a great life. A lot of people in my native uk are anti hunting and were appalled that I shot pheasants. They happily ate chicken from the supermarket, though. The pheasants were free roaming in the woods, with a pen that they could get back in to for safety from foxes and so on. Fed regularly on good quality corn (we shot on an organic farm!) and died quickly in their natural environment - the animal's welfare was a priority, as it is for all good hunters. Whereas the chicken is allowed x square meters, might have direct sunlight or not (even free-range certified can be really dodgy in the uk) and then they are sent in to a whirling cacophony of blades, machines and dead animals at the end of their life. Personally, I think the pheasants had the better deal.

And that is one reason for this thread - vegans can be vegans for many reasons which means that their boundaries in what they allow or not will vary somewhat.

The unsaponified parts is a very good point. I also wonder about the chemical make up of lard vs cocoa butter - how similar of a product are they?

 

[topofmurrayhill]

While there is no totally humane way to kill, there are ways that are better than others

I consider dynamite to be extremely humane. However, it is a bit inconvenient because of all the hunting around to find everything.

 

[JayJay]

See, now I'm thinking of a piggy liposuction machine to humanely harvest the fat without killing the pig

I also agree with the quality of life issue. While there is no totally humane way to kill, there are ways that are better than others especially when it follows a great life. A lot of people in my native uk are anti hunting and were appalled that I shot pheasants. They happily ate chicken from the supermarket, though. The pheasants were free roaming in the woods, with a pen that they could get back in to for safety from foxes and so on. Fed regularly on good quality corn (we shot on an organic farm!) and died quickly in their natural environment - the animal's welfare was a priority, as it is for all good hunters. Whereas the chicken is allowed x square meters, might have direct sunlight or not (even free-range certified can be really dodgy in the uk) and then they are sent in to a whirling cacophony of blades, machines and dead animals at the end of their life. Personally, I think the pheasants had the better deal.

And that is one reason for this thread - vegans can be vegans for many reasons which means that their boundaries in what they allow or not will vary somewhat.

The unsaponified parts is a very good point. I also wonder about the chemical make up of lard vs cocoa butter - how similar of a product are they?

I agree with everything you just said. We have a friend who raises animals on his property, just a few at a time. They roam around in the grass and lay out in the sun. It seems like a good life to me. I feel like they have to die anyway. Natural death for animals includes being eaten for food by other animals. We are animals. So I feel like it is natural. Lard and tallow are just just byproducts of the processing. Okay in my book.

However, I can see how the idea of ending the cow's life can be upsetting to some people and why they would want no part in using any of their body parts or fat for any reason-- especially not to rub it all over their naked bodies. I totally get that choice. I have known many vegans over my life and they are some of the most conscientious people I have ever met. They want to respect all life and end suffering at the hands of humans. I respect that too.

I think that sometimes their beliefs are so strong that it becomes visceral. I have known people who get sick at the smell of meat cooking because they are that disgusted by it. I would imagine that the last thing they would want to do is rub animal products into their skin. No amount of reasoning could change the emotional experience of that. If you were to tell me that you could scientifically breakdown feces into fatty acids and put them into a soap, there is no way I would ever try it. I would not care how many people testified to how good the soap feels, or how many time someone said that there is no actual feces left in the soap. Once the word feces is mentioned, I'm out. I would imagine that for some vegans, it's the same thing.

Edit-- love the piggy Lipo idea! The slogan could be, Lean piggies = good soap! Although if vegans don't appreciate the harvesting of honey from bees, they probably won't like the harvesting of fat from pigs.

I wonder what doctors do with all the human fat that is collected during lipo procedures. Hummm. Soap adventure?

Edit#2. -- bolds and underlines are not pointed at TEG or anyone else in particular. I just want make sure that my points are easily visible to those who are skimming.

 

[not_ally]

JayJay: "I wonder what doctors do with all the human fat that is collected during lipo procedures. Hummm. Soap adventure?"

Two words: Tyler Durden. Be very, very careful using soap from those macho types who disappear for as while to come back with bruises and stitches! Who knows how they calculate SAP values

 

[kumudini]

The unsaponified parts is a very good point. I also wonder about the chemical make up of lard vs cocoa butter - how similar of a product are they?

They have the same fatty acids in different proportions. The soap calc numbers for hardness are different and in tandem the condition numbers are different. 61 for cocoa butter Vs 42 for lard in terms of hardness. So, they are different.And they are different enough that cocoa butter smells like chocolate and the lard, don't know about that one for sure, but may be lard? I don't think it smells like chocolate though.

 

[Dahila]

Fuzz something took place here, no problemo .

 

[snappyllama]

When I was a vegetarian, I wouldn't consume (eat, buy, use) anything made from a product came from a dead animal. So I didn't buy a car with leather seats (the thought icked me out). I read labels like a hawk (many canned beans have meat-broth bases and don’t get me started on the gelatin in many candies). I certainly wouldn't have bought any soap made from an animal fat (even if that fat wasn't technically an animal fat any more).

My vegan friends avoided honey, milk, or basically anything that was produced by animals. I did have one public-vegan/private-vegetarian friend who would happily drink milk from her family’s goat. Since she was raising it, she had full confidence in its treatment. I don't think many of my vegan friends would have been bothered by using manure in their gardens, especially if it was sourced from a cruelty-free provider.

Although there is a lot of overlap between the vegan, organic, non-GMO, no paraben crowds, that Venn diagram isn’t entirely a full circle. Then you’ve got the gluten-free folks and the no-palm folks. And the locally-sourced-only folks. So it’s going to be hard to please *everyone* with a single product. Maybe a 100% organic coconut bar would come the closest if you lived somewhere tropical.

I think it really depends on the reasons someone has for avoiding certain things. For selling soaps labeled as 'vegan', I would just make a good faith effort to provide a product that uses nothing initially created by a non-human animal. Stearic Acid should be the veggie derived one (and label it as such on your product). Treating people, especially potential customers, with honesty and respect goes a long way.

Thinking on the Fight Club posts, I’d bet pig lard comes closest to human fat. We are more closely related to them than cows or goats.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

not_ally, after reading some threads about lard and tallow use, possibly being more ethical and responsible choice,I have actually considered using animal fat in soap. I just couldn't come to a decision.

This is kind of the same boat I am in. I eat meat, and I don't feel super conflicted about eating it, although I ate a vegan diet for several months a handful of years back. I couldn't sustain it, for a variety of reasons, and now, being a meat eater, I just try to be more conscious of my choices as a meat-eater.

Having said that, when it comes to soap, I had no interest in using animal fats at all. But reading through the forums and reading some articles on the internet about using lard/tallow (even one really great blog post by a vegetarian as to why SHE uses lard/tallow in her soap!), I decided to try it. I was excited about the prospect of creating nice, white, hard bars and honestly, about the cost reduction in indredients. But I have to say, I felt uneasy. Sometimes we can't describe exactly WHAT we are feeling or WHY we are feeling it, but that doesn't mean we don't feel it. And I think we should pay attention to that.

If someone wanted to engage me in a philosophical debate about why it's ok to use it, I'd probably lose. Because this isn't about what seems logical or what makes sense in the grand scheme of things. It's about the fact that even though I was able to create beautiful soap with lard, that feeling of uneasiness never left me. (This was only 2 batches with lard). I decided to not try to figure it out or go back and forth and back and forth about it in my head, driving myself nuts. Because the simple truth is, when I make my vegan batches, I don't have that same feeling of uneasiness. So why torture myself about it?

Sorry to go on and on.. just felt like I could relate a lot to your posts lately, and wanted to share.

(Having said all that, I have no judgements towards other soapers who use choose to use animal fat.)

 

[kumudini]

Valerie, I think your uneasiness stems from not giving the 'why' a full thought. Since you were not fully convinced, it's possible that you felt like you were exploiting the situation instead of helping it.
May be you don't like putting animal fat on your skin, but it could be that my reasoning is correct in your case. Whatever it is, you are making a choice you are comfortable with. Good for you. The debate in my mind continues, on so many aspects of this issue.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

...........even one really great blog post by a vegetarian as to why SHE uses lard/tallow in her soap..............

I would love to read that! Do you have a link?

For those who eat meat but feel uncomfortable using animal fat, do bear in mind that you get more animal fat on you while cooking at eating meat than you would from using a soap - say 50% of the 5% SF is lard (the saponified soap is no longer an animal fat), so that's 2.5% of what we put on us is still lard, taking pure figures that are of course not 100% accurate, but for illustration work fine. Then a 100g bar of soap might be good for 21 washes, so that is 4.8g of soap per wash (rounding up) which is 0.12 grams of lard on our bodies.

Even if we take the 50% of the recipe as being lard, that is only 2.4g of lard on our bodies per wash.

 

[not_ally]

EG, I am not sure if this is the link to which Valerie was referring. But I actually remembered the title of this post read some time ago, so clearly made an impact - and pulled it up, here it is:

http://www.humblebeeandme.com/why-i-use-lard-or-tallow-in-my-soap-and-why-you-should-too/

 

[Lion Of Judah]

This has been one of the most interesting post in a long long time . every reply was an interesting and enlightening read. i think the whole topic from start to end can be put in a thimble and poured out into a single word........ "Choice". It's the very reason that we are all here making handmade soap as oppose to buying factory brand name soap , choice, the right to chose. a vegan , vegetarian , organic minded , non-gmo , and the list goes on are all exercising the human right of choice to what they eat , wear, and how they want their society and community around them to reflect that right . and i equally support the other side of the coin, if a person loves animal ingredients in their soap or body care products then more power to them it's their choice. no one loves to have something forced upon them , whether vegan or otherwise , we all like to think we chose what is right for us in our own opinion ....right or wrong . in closing i will say that if you can supply a soap that is vegan friendly then by all means don't hesitate to make it , for you will be affording someone the power of "choice" .

*this is my short take on this subject

 

[tbeck3579]

As long as you are afforded the socioeconomic means to continue with a healthy vegetarian (or vegan) lifestyle I say go for it. I love veggies too, and if I could figure out how to process enough vegetable oil on the farm... Anyway, being a farm girl I was giggling about the various swine comments. No way I'm lipo'ing a hog... I want my ham, bacon, and pork chops Disgusting, I know, but my first thought was about the crazy murderers appearing regularly on the news, the ones who are supplementing pigs diets with ****-sapiens, sigh... What a world... Pigs will eat almost anything making them an ideal garbage disposal; a living, breathing *recycling machine* on the farm. Slopping the hogs means taking the slop bucket (a bucket used to throw all of your garbage into) and giving it to the hogs for dinner. As a side note, chickens will eat almost anything too, and chickens need protein (historically suet is used on the farm), but I digress. Consider all the things that you couldn't do on the farm if you didn't have the animals, suet, or lard -- surviving would be difficult at best. The rats would soon take over if we didn't have animals eating garbage, or other animals. City dwelling, generation X folks may benefit from the knowledge acquired by surviving without a grocery store. I would give many yuppy vegetarians < 1 year without a grocery store before they ask "now how do you safely and humanely process your meat?" Let's "face" it (yes, meat has a face), pigs are pigs and humans, as determined by nature, are carnivores; meat eaters, at the top of the food chain. BTW, I am extremely sensitive to the suffering of anything. In fact, I wonder how my roses and trees are feeling after a severe pruning. I'm wondering if vegetarians realize that plants also react to being sadistically murdered Okay, I was being a bit of a smart a** here, sorry, but it is true that plants react to violence. Almost everything alive has a built in survival mechanism to avoid extinction, even things that don't have a face we recognize. So, the reason for this post; animal lovers like me (and I am!) shouldn't feel guilty if they want a steak for dinner tonight And that's the rest of the story -- anyone else miss Paul?

 

[kumudini]

Tbeck, I like your post. It has some great points, things that I have often thought about. That's why I say, I don't want to hurt any animal if I don't have to. Yes I'm aware of the scientific proof that plants feel pain. I guess all I can say is that I can see and as a result feel the pain the animals feel, like I could feel the pain of humans where as the pain plants feel, some one has to set up some really sci-fi equipment and measure ion travels etcetera. Not saying it doesn't count, but it kinda doesn't. And in most cases we are not killing the plant, we are just harvesting, and they die their natural death in case of annuals and biennials.
My mind is tired of this non soap discussion.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Valerie, I think your uneasiness stems from not giving the 'why' a full thought. Since you were not fully convinced, it's possible that you felt like you were exploiting the situation instead of helping it.
May be you don't like putting animal fat on your skin, but it could be that my reasoning is correct in your case. Whatever it is, you are making a choice you are comfortable with. Good for you. The debate in my mind continues, on so many aspects of this issue.

I think, for me, it is more about sourcing. I have very easy access to affordable lard from the grocery store, so that is where I went. I can guarantee that the lard in that tub didn't come from happy pigs from a local farm.

It's less about putting animal fat on my skin, and more about the energy that is in the fat. That sounds way more "hippie" than I am, but do you know what I mean? If I am going to use animal fat in soap, it needs to be "happy fat" or I just don't think I can be down with it.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

I would love to read that! Do you have a link?

Here is the link, Mr. Gentleman -

http://www.humblebeeandme.com/why-i-use-lard-or-tallow-in-my-soap-and-why-you-should-too/

ETA: Looks like not_ally beat me to it. Thanks!

 

[not_ally]

Val, looks like we are on the same page (pun intended )

 

[vyadha]

Vegan soap is a soap that a vegan would buy.