What is a "vegan soap"?

[hmlove1218]

What many vegetarians don't realize...is that a whole lot of animals die in the act of growing those vegetables. And they are not eaten, they are just slaughtered for being themselves....raiding the crops on farms is a death sentence to many creatures.http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

Yes, so technically wouldn't this mean that vegans shouldn't eat commercially grown plants either since most are treated with pesticides to kill off insects? Wouldn't that mean that animals were harmed and exploited for that salad?

 

[Chefmom]

Yes, so technically wouldn't this mean that vegans shouldn't eat commercially grown plants either since most are treated with pesticides to kill off insects? Wouldn't that mean that animals were harmed and exploited for that salad?

Sadly....exactly. If you want to take it to the most extreme, yes. There is no one right answer to doing no harm yet still existing as a human.

There is a small offset of vegetarianism where they only eat products of plants, nothing that destroys the plant as a whole. It's okay to pick the fruit from the living plant, yet not okay to cut a lettuce leaf off, since that harms the plant itself. Apples...good.....carrots....bad.

There are lots of philosophy's, lots of choices. Like kchaystack said earlier, if we all stop using palm globally we will put a lot of people who are dependent on palm production out of business....and yet something else will have to step in...and maybe that will be even worse than palm in the first place.

If corn production is more lucrative for the farmer..then he will not grow wheat, and wheat supplies will fall, prices soar...and we will have too much corn. The year that companies started to demand sunflower oil pushed the prices of wheat up to almost triple what they were the previous year. Farmers planted what would give them the highest price, sunflowers, and stopped planting wheat. The price of sunflower seeds jumped to feed my birds, and has been high ever since....and the price of wheat for a couple of years was through the roof as they say.

It's all about balance...and we are a global world...so that is a lot to balance.

 

[LBussy]

Honey is not vomit, but if you were watching them produce it the physical action might resemble what we understand as vomit more than anything else. This does not enter their digestive tract per se. They have a "honey stomach" and a regular foods stomach. I don't know what the hell they are called but I do remember that from school.

I know a few people that consider themselves vegan and the cruelty/exploitation/"product" thing is a common theme. Different people see different things as exploitation or cruelty, and "product" similarly has different meaning. For instance, fruit is produced by a tree as a result of the work of honey bees. The justifications/reasoning are only limited by one's personal belief system.

I see where you are going with the "if there's no lye anymore there's no animal" argument and the life-long amateur lawyer in me appreciates it. But, you can't really color something "blue" and have everyone see it as such. Therefore, there's no definition save the one that works for the individual. This is in part why there's no such regulation defining a commercial designation of "vegan." "vegetarian," or "organic."

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Good points, all.

It stems as from the idea that, while we look at oils as oils, they are in fact made up of proportions of the same things to various degrees. If you took lard and cocoa butter, broke them down in the the fatty acids and used it in a soap, there would be little difference.

I find that a jolly interesting idea and a jolly interesting way of looking at our soaps.

 

[KristaY]

Also, the Biblical viewpoint should be considered. I don't use lard because I have many family members that avoid pork products because of their religious beliefs. I also have several vegetarian family members. For these reasons alone, I avoid animal products so all can be soapy satisfied. Personally, I'm an unashamed carnivore and would love to try lard but, sadly, I won't. My understanding is, if I were to use lard or tallow, I'd have to have a completely separate set of soaping tools (bowls, SB, spatulas, molds, etc). One designated to animal fats, one designated to plant fats.

I agree with you, Gent, on the chemistry at the bottom line, but personal belief systems still need to be considered.

 

[LBussy]

Also, the Biblical viewpoint should be considered. I don't use lard because I have many family members that avoid pork products because of their religious beliefs. I also have several vegetarian family members. For these reasons alone, I avoid animal products so all can be soapy satisfied. Personally, I'm an unashamed carnivore and would love to try lard but, sadly, I won't. My understanding is, if I were to use lard or tallow, I'd have to have a completely separate set of soaping tools (bowls, SB, spatulas, molds, etc). One designated to animal fats, one designated to plant fats.

I agree with you, Gent, on the chemistry at the bottom line, but personal belief systems still need to be considered.

Here ya go: Kosher tallow:

https://www.kolfoods.com/kosher-products/9-Beef-delicacies/default.asp

(price is not for the faint of heart). The point being you can do kosher and at least not have to have "all separate" stuff for at least the religious beliefs.

 

[KristaY]

Holy cow, Lee! (pun intended, lol) You aren't kidding about the price. $142.99 for 8 lbs is $1.12 per oz! Kosher cows must be costly to feed, water and house. Plus, it's not rendered. Wowsers!

 

[LBussy]

I'm sure you can get it elsewhere, I just did a Google search to see if it was a "thing" and grabbed the first link.

 

[Cindy2428]

As I continue learning about soapy stuff and meeting, discussing soap with anyone who will listen, it's forced me out of my comfort zone. We all gravitate to people who share our beliefs, politics etc and the neat thing about handcrafted aficionados is they cross every spectrum.

I'm enjoying this thread - thanks Craig, because the one thing I have consistently learned is vegans whatever level they come from in their beliefs ask the most questions and read EVERYTHING! As a future soapy business owner, (hopefully), I would anticipate this will be a group that could potentially be a big market, and I need more education. This is so far off my personal spectrum that that I can't even put myself in their "shoes" so to speak.

Discuss on!

 

[KristaY]

....vegans whatever level they come from in their beliefs ask the most questions and read EVERYTHING!

You're SO right, Cindy! Not only do they ask a ton of questions, they REALLY pay attention to what you're saying, so having the answers before hand is really important. In my area it's the Master Gardeners that pick apart the ingredients. They want to know what plant oils I use and why, where I get them, what the benefits are, do I avoid GMO's, etc. When I talk with these people I really have to be on my game, lol.

 

[SplendorSoaps]

What a great discussion!

What I find interesting is that my online customers seem far more "consumed" (pun intended) with the whole vegan thing, and the in-person customers couldn't care less what goes into the bar as long as it smells good! LOL

I do almost exclusively vegan soaps (just because those are the oils and butters that I like to work with), but use honey in a few soaps and occasionally beeswax in lotion bars. I'm not vegan, but it does seem strange to me that something renewable like honey, that doesn't kill the animal, it still off-limits. Also, if an animal is being killed, it's almost always for meat (at least, here in the U.S.). It seems to me that using lard and tallow would be more of a situation where you wouldn't want to waste the byproduct of slaughter for food. It's not as if animals are being slaughtered in droves just for their fat! Not to offend any practicing vegans - just my two cents.

 

[Dahila]

I guess it will come to the actual belief then. Being vegan is not just "not eating or consuming anything that comes from animals". It's a belief that they shouldn't be killed, exploited or made to suffer.
Even though they might not be actual animal parts left in the soap, they died so that the soap could be made.
Animal was killed and suffered for that soap to be made.
When you make a lard soap, you need to kill a pig.
For coconut or palm oil soap, you need to harvest trees.
I'm not vegan or vegetarian so this is just an educated rumbling. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

No one killed the piggy for the fat for soap. We are using the thingy which would go to waste.
Vegans no suppose to use honey or beeswax and they do ie lip balms.
When I was young I was driving my mom crazy being vegan for over two years. Finally it passed ...... I would never kill an animal for the fat, no one would)

 

[kumudini]

There are some degrees of veganism, some with the belief that animals should not be killed for food, others that they personally will not eat or use animal products. Also, if animals are killed anyway for food so no animal dies for the fat, does that then change the view?

I'm trying to be vegan. My operative word is cruelty free. I call my self a vegan outside of home for all practical purposes but I do often times have milk delivered to home, the milk comes from a 100% cruelty free organic dairy farm.
I will have no issues soaping with that milk or milk from cruelty free goat farm?
I would say it is impossible to obtain body fat from animals without involving any cruelty.
ETA: honey and beeswax are not off limits for me.
I see what most of you are saying about animals being harmed in order to grow vegetables. I know some people go to extremes, finding out every little detail about how everything came about so they can be sure. My philosophy is simple. I don't want to hurt any animal if I don't need to. I don't want to hurt myself either, I don't want to be trapped in my own veganism cell, unable to escape. I want to live my life, as quietly and peacefully as possible.
I don't think avoiding Palm oil is a very good idea either, I know that a nation depends on it. I'm not the center of universe. Im not going to judge the world based on my own values. Every ones life circumstances are different. That Palm grower only knows his family's hunger. He may not be educated enough to know the repercussions of his actions. He may not even have the luxury of time to think or the Internet to educate him. Who am I to judge?
Live and let live, be it humans or animals.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

No one killed the piggy for the fat for soap. We are using the thingy which would go to waste.
Vegans no suppose to use honey or beeswax and they do ie lip balms.
When I was young I was driving my mom crazy being vegan for over two years. Finally it passed ...... I would never kill an animal for the fat, no one would)

That's kind of taken out of context.
I meant killed as in general, not just for fat.
Animal has to die so that we are able to get the fat from it.

 

[HappyHomeSoapCo]

I thought vegans were well read too. But recently discovered that many do not know what tallow is, lol. I was shocked. Then I posted on fb and many vegans replied they didn't know what it was either!

 

[Dahila]

That's kind of taken out of context.
I meant killed as in general, not just for fat.
Animal has to die so that we are able to get the fat from it.

Animal had to die to feed the hungry, pepper or carrot had to die to feed the hungry.
I respect you are vegan. Show me the fact that veggies do not feel pain when they can not seed naturally due our devouring them. I would think, they do. It is food chain.
Fuzz I am very old woman in the group of older women here. We have experience and knowledge not always found in the books or internet. I guess a least half of us were vegan due the hippy movement, and Mahatma Ghandi in India. We are not bunch of dummies , who kill animals for fat.
ON this forum people do not tell the ones who make lard or tallow soaps that they kind of murdering the animal. I do not tell you that soon you will start eating steaks and enjoying it, cause I do not want hurt your feeling. Respect others, you get respect back. In case you are wondering about my style of writing , English is my second language )

 

[FlybyStardancer]

I don't use lard because I have many family members that avoid pork products because of their religious beliefs. I also have several vegetarian family members. For these reasons alone, I avoid animal products so all can be soapy satisfied. Personally, I'm an unashamed carnivore and would love to try lard but, sadly, I won't.

A very large portion of the friends I give my soaps to are vegetarian, so I can understand it. And I did give in and tried lard...and loved it. It's certainly a headache to make sure that my soaps are labeled so that it's clear which are vegetarian and which aren't.

I'm just lucky that they're satisfied by me washing stuff between uses. (Heck, one of said vegetarians works at a fast food burger joint... Though to be fair she started working there before she met her now-husband and became vegetarian.)

 

[not_ally]

One of the things that I like about this forum is that we can disagree about (eg) the use of animal fats without calling each other names.

Dahila, I love your style of writing, I think you do a great job of getting your point across! V, if I were ever to be a vegan (not in this lifetime, I am afraid) you are the type I would be. I guess I just think that as long as there is a market for eating meat products - and really see the contra as being a long time in the future, if ever - it is not a morally improper choice to be as environmentally and socially conscious as possible using as much as we can of it. ETA: I have not gotten the idea that you *are* judging, either, just explaining your own choices.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

Animal had to die to feed the hungry, pepper or carrot had to die to feed the hungry.
I respect you are vegan. Show me the fact that veggies do not feel pain when they can not seed naturally due our devouring them. I would think, they do. It is food chain.
Fuzz I am very old woman in the group of older women here. We have experience and knowledge not always found in the books or internet. I guess a least half of us were vegan due the hippy movement, and Mahatma Ghandi in India. We are not bunch of dummies , who kill animals for fat.
ON this forum people do not tell the ones who make lard or tallow soaps that they kind of murdering the animal. I do not tell you that soon you will start eating steaks and enjoying it, cause I do not want hurt your feeling. Respect others, you get respect back. In case you are wondering about my style of writing , English is my second language )

Dahlia, I don't want to be mean to anyone. I just didn't like someone taking what I sad out of context and flipping it around.
I did however realised that English is your second language, mine is too. My original country is not too far from yours. Maybe our thoughts here are just lost in translation.
I'm not vegan nor vegetarian. I love my steaks and bacon!
I don't mind animals dying as long as they are killed in humane way and serve their purpose as food.
I respect both sides and I do not judge. I joined this thread just because of general interest. I really don't know were I showed no respect to other's opinion. If I did I apologise.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Not only do we kill the animal, I personally steal their wallet before I take the fat.

/mood lightening

In my case, there's no conflict. I'm an omnivore who minimizes meat eating (it's been...four days I think since I had any meat or meat products). But I still eat it.