What happens when you add extra water to a recipe?

[Soapstars]

Hello Soapers, what happens if you add extra water to a recipe please? Some of my soaps are fine and fluid and others are really thick and gloopy so much so that they are hard in seconds! What would happen if I added extra water to these soaps please? I made a goat milk soap yesterday and was going to make some mini soaps but the mixture got so thick so soon that all I could do was spoon it into a loaf mould. It was hard almost straight away. So, I put it in a slow cooker with quite a lot of extra water and expected it to be ages before i could unmould it. However, it was really hard again by 12 hours later! Cut it and it looks good, not like rebatch at all.

Thinking of adding extra water to any other soaps that have a habit of getting thick quickly, what do you think?

 

[Kittish]

How much water are you using in your recipe(s) already? It'll help if you just post the entire recipe(s), including what temps you soap at and what you use for scent in your soap. Your fragrance could be what's causing some of them to thicken so fast, there are a number of FOs and EOs that are known to cause acceleration. Soaping at higher temps will also tend to cause the soap to thicken faster, though on its own not usually to the extent you're describing (though it could still be a factor).

Adding more water means there will be more water in the soap that will need to evaporate out during curing. Too much water will lead to excessive shrinking and possibly warping of your bars.

 

[Soapstars]

Hello Kittish,

Particularly its the goatmilk and the coconut milk recipes that thicken too fast. I am using 380g water (or 200g milk where its called for plus 180g water) to 136.96g of lye as shown by soapcalc for 1000g of oils.

I usually soap around 100-120F. Today it was 116F.

My recipe is 40% olive oil, 25% shea butter and 25% coconut oil and 10% castor oil. I use a little TD in some variations and a little colour in some too. The goatmilk recipe has no TD and no colourant. But is has 25g of almond fragrance.

 

[DeeAnna]

Adding extra water -- if you are talking about CP soap -- will also increase the chance of your soap "breaking" and separating in the mold. If you are using "full water" (roughly 28% lye concentration), that is the most water (lowest lye concentration) I would ever use for CP soap making. I know for certain that lye concentration of about 15% is very difficult to work with.

You're going to be a better soap maker and have more consistent results in the long run if you can figure out why your results are so variable. Follow Kittish's advice and provide more information, please.

edit: Okay, so I see from your latest post that you're using the default of 38% "water as % of oils." The first thing to do is shift from using "water as % of oils" and go to lye concentration or water:lye ratio. You will get more consistent results when you make this one change.

At 137 g NaOH and 380 g liquid, your recipe is at about 26% lye concentration, and that's plenty of water. I personally would not go any lower.

 

[BattleGnome]

I find recipes with coconut can accelerate faster than those without. Are you using a stick blender? Are you mixing to emulsion, light trace, medium trace...? When are you adding your fragrance? Where did you get your fragrance? Sometimes supplier websites have more information or a review about how much a fragrance accelerates.

 

[Soapstars]

Yes, it is CP soap am making, with a stick blender to a light emulsion. At that point I add any colourant and finally the fragrance.

The fragrance with the lemongrass and coconut milk soap is lemongrass EO and coconut FO mix.

The fragrance I use with the goat milk soap is almond FO.

I buy my fragrances from the Soap Kitchen and Mystic Moments, good quality suppliers.

Battlegnome, I will look at reviews on these fragrances, thank you.

 

[DeeAnna]

Are you accounting for the extra fat added when you use coconut oil? Some coconut milk products are not especially high in fat, but some are. Coconut oil will trace faster than, say, olive oil, so if you increase the % of coconut oil in the recipe by using a high-fat coconut milk, that may at least partly explain the problem you're seeing.

 

[Soapstars]

I am only doing 5% superfat and I was told that the extra fat in the coconut milk would not make a massive difference but I like the idea of it superfatting a bit too. My coconut milk is 55% coconut extract which doesn't seem high. I have a feeling that it is the coconut fragrance (no reviews on it by soapers yet).
But I need this fragrance so what would be a workaround? It starts to pour ok into the mould but within seconds becomes grainy and I stir it again and continue pouring but its all downhill very quickly from there!

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I was told that the extra fat in the coconut milk would not make a massive difference but I like the idea of it superfatting a bit too..."

What you've been told and what is actually true can be two different things. Like I said earlier, SOME coconut milk is fairly low in fat, but some products are quite high. The truth of the matter can be found by reading the nutrition label and calculating the % fat. One product I used would have increased my superfat by a substantial amount -- more than just "a bit".

"...I need this fragrance so what would be a workaround? It starts to pour ok into the mould but within seconds becomes grainy..."

Okay, so now you're explaining more of the story and this makes all the difference. If you have an accelerating fragrance, one way to deal with it is to add it to the oils before you add the lye, not after the lye and fat are mixed together. Then move fast once you add the lye solution -- mix to emulsion and pour into the mold.

 

[Soapstars]

Ok, thank you. That is my next step and I will let you know how it goes. Thank you all for your input.

 

[soaperwoman]

You wait a long time for your soap to dry. Sometimes a very long time.

 

[KristaY]

When I use coconut milk, I do the math as DeeAnna suggested, so I know how much extra fat it will add to my recipe. I don't really like a soap with a SF higher than 3% so I adjust accordingly. But remember the CM also adds extra water which will increase the temp of the soap as it goes through saponification. Because of that, I wouldn't add extra water but would decrease it.

When I'm using a known FO accelerator, I mix the oils and lye to emulsification, divide and color if that's what I'm doing, then add the FO last so I can pour straight away. I never add extra water when I'm doing this though. I'd expect lots of cracking and ash if I did.:cry:

 

[Soapstars]

Thanks KristaY. Learning all the time...

 

[kchaystack]

But remember the CM also adds extra water which will increase the temp of the soap as it goes through saponification. Because of that, I wouldn't add extra water but would decrease it.

This is not correct. It is the sugar in the coconut milk that causes extra heating. The extra water lowers the temp that the soap will gel tho - So it might appear to get hotter because it gels easier.

 

[maxine289]

SOME coconut milk is fairly low in fat, but some products are quite high. The truth o

DeeAnna, can you expound a bit more on calculating the amount of fat in coconut milk by reading the nutrition label and how you account for that in the recipe? Which brands are low/high in fat?

 

[DeeAnna]

I think you'll find your answers here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831
and perhaps a bit more here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=41072

As far as looking at various brands of coconut milk and how much fat is in each -- it's not something I'm interested in researching, so you will have to do that homework yourself. Go to the store, find what products are available to you, and read the nutrition labels on those brands.

 

[maxine289]

I think you'll find your answers here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831
and perhaps a bit more here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=41072

As far as looking at various brands of coconut milk and how much fat is in each -- it's not something I'm interested in researching, so you will have to do that homework yourself. Go to the store, find what products are available to you, and read the nutrition labels on those brands.

Thanks, DeeAnna. I read the posts you suggested and they explain why the coconut soap I made was SOOO oily. I didn't account for the fat in the coconut milk.

 

[dixiedragon]

I goggled around a bit on this, but I'm no expert. What I think is that if you let the coconut milk separate, the thick cream on top is mostly fat, and the thin stuff on the bottom is mostly water. So, you could let your coconut milk separate (I think it may help to find a brand with as few additives as possible, since some of those may be emulsifiers that keep separation from happening). Once the coconut milk has separate, put it in the fridge. When it is cold, you can easily lift the hardened fat off of the top. Then, weigh that and add it to your oils.

I've never done it that way b/c I don't care to be that precise. When I use coconut milk, I bump my water up to 40% of oils, then use 1/2 water and 1/2 coconut milk. Meaning that if the recipe calls for 10 oz of water, I use 5 oz of water to dissolve my lye and 5 oz of coconut milk. I let my lye reach room temp and I get my oils to about 100F. Add the coconut milk to the oils and mix with the stick blender. Then, while blending, pour in the lye water. I figure this way, I have enough water (because 5 oz of coconut milk is not 5 oz of water) and I use a 5% superfat, so the fat from the coconut milk may bump up the superfat a bit, but not out of the acceptable range.