What happens to the bad stuff in animal fat once saponified?

[valerieinthegallery]

That sounds like a big foot sighting, what was that weird thing running across the road lol.

I don't think anyone really knows what non oil contaminates turn into once its been saponified. We don't even really know what some of the additives we purposely put into soap turn in. I mean, what happens to different herbal teas or veggies? I know thats not the same as antibiotic residue but you know what I mean.

I'd still rather use handmade soap made with polluted animals and veggy oils then the chemical cocktail that is commercial bath and body washes.

Actually, when I was lying in bed last night thinking about this, I also started thinking about the additives that we use, etc. and how those are changed, if they are. So yes, it's definitely along the same vein.

And I agree that any homemade soap, regardless of oils used, HAS to be better than mass-produced "soap".

Food animals are not fed or injected with poison. Antibiotics and hormones are water soluble, not fat soluble. If they were still present in the animal, they would be rendered out with the water and not remain in the finished product.

There are also different classification of animal fats. Those designated for human consumption (food grade) are rigorously tested for any contaminants and if any are found, the fat is discarded.

In other words, it is very highly unlikely that commercial lard contains any of the stuff you are concerned about.

However, to get back to your question, IF the fat did somehow contain a molecule or two of something you didn't want, and IF that molecule did survive the rendering process and the testing, and IF it somehow made it into your soap pot, I would guess (and this is really just a guess) that the lye would shred those little molecules to bits and break them down into harmless atoms. Most of those additives are acidic, and acid + alkaline (lye) usually results in a salt and some leftover water.

I also think that another poster brought up an excellent point about if there are indeed any unwanted ingredients stored in the fats that can survive the process, then we need to ask the same question of all plant oils, too. While they are not given antibiotics or growth hormones they are treated with pesticides (yes, even organic farming uses pesticides), they process the same polluted air and water.

Again, I think most of these additives are water soluble and would not survive the process it takes to get them to the market shelf, but if they did I am guessing the lye would just turn it into salt.

JM2C

Thank you for this insight - interesting about fat soluble vs. water soluble. It seems that I have read over and over again that things get stored in fat (not just in pigs, but in any mammal), so I will have to look into where I have read that and what else they say about it, just to refresh my memory.

 

[LBussy]

Aggree with DeeAnna, agree with Valerie - but the question does start out with a presupposition that there are nasties there.

IF there are "nasties", the disposition of them would necessarily be dependant upon what we are talking about. There's a better than fair chance that a good many things, even if not saponified directly, would be significantly denatured by the causting environment that applies to all of the ingredients in CP. In HP, even for the superfat, we are talking about a highly alkaline environment, and let's not discount the heat too.

So, I do think we need to start with "what nasties' what's your source" and go from there, even if it's just casual musings.

Don't get me wrong, I start more than my share of "I was thinking about ... " threads. :shh:

ETA: I missed new12soaps's comments - said much better than I did.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Agreed. I guess I just worded it how I was thinking about it, based on my own knowledge and beliefs about it. (Which I do think are accurate, in terms of what they are fed/given while raised for food, but I will secede that I don't necessarily know for sure that any of that stays behind in their fat).

In light of that, I would like to let the mods know that it's ok if they want to edit my thread title to something more along the lines of "What happens to contaminants in oils/fats during saponification?" That sounds more in line of what we are discussing and is less shocking for people using the search feature to get info on animal oils.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

On a wider thought from Lee's comment, we often talk about 'unsaponifiables' as if they are the untouchables and lye is Al Capone. But while many things do not become soap when mixed with lye, I imagine something does indeed happen.

We know that very little goodness is likely to survive some time with Lye Capone, but what does that chemical equation look like? I think that is where Valerie was aiming - if there is some PbO2 (not sure if that exists) in the fat, what does PbO2 + NaOH = ?

 

[valerieinthegallery]

On a wider thought from Lee's comment, we often talk about 'unsaponifiables' as if they are the untouchables and lye is Al Capone. But while many things do not become soap when mixed with lye, I imagine something does indeed happen.

We know that very little goodness is likely to survive some time with Lye Capone, but what does that chemical equation look like? I think that is where Valerie was aiming - if there is some PbO2 (not sure if that exists) in the fat, what does PbO2 + NaOH = ?

That is *exactly* what I was getting at! My question came across as challenging or judging or something, I think. When really, it had nothing to do with any of that.

Now I'm wondering what PbO2 is. Surely, it exists somewhere. Jotting that down on my "To Research" list

Lye Capone. :razz:

 

[valerieinthegallery]

It's Lead Dioxide.

 

[nebetmiw]

I could go more into this but I have one statement. Soap is a Wash off product. It does not stay on long enough for any long lasting effect. To make Lard pig fat is heated and melted for a bit of time to get rid of water. We then heat it again to melt it and then hit it with LYE. STOP worrying about nothing.

The main reason we all make soap is to get away from the detergents in store bought plus use scents we like and other stuff. I personally will NOT use Olive Oil on my skin. It makes me itchy. I make a lard, co, PO and safflower oil soap. Another is lard. co and almond. I use Coconut milk or our animal milk here either cow or goat. I have many people using my soap from real dry skin to me who has more oil than I care to admit. We have real hard water with high PH and high humidity here. Some of my people have softeners on their water lines and are in lower humidity area. Right now we are very dry here with very hot dry winds. All this effects skin and soap making and how it works on your skin. I have seemed to have found one good formula for our local. It took me a few years and I still play with changing liquid oils a bit but lard and CO are my main stays with milk.

Oh I used to use store bought lard for a few years till we got our pigs. Hubby and BIL grew up on a family farm. Me I did not but I have talked to factory farmers. I know what alot of cows and pigs are fed. I will not go there but FDA has made alot of changes in recent years. But again soap is not ingested and just a wash off product.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

I could go more into this but I have one statement. Soap is a Wash off product. It does not stay on long enough for any long lasting effect. To make Lard pig fat is heated and melted for a bit of time to get rid of water. We then heat it again to melt it and then hit it with LYE. STOP worrying about nothing.

Oh, goodness gracious. I think it's time for me to shut my mouth, because apparently I am NOT being very efficacious (shout out to Mr. Gentleman!) in my communication.

I am not worried whatsoever about putting lard on my skin. In any way, shape or form. For any reason.

 

[nebetmiw]

Oh, goodness gracious. I think it's time for me to shut my mouth, because apparently I am NOT being very efficacious (shout out to Mr. Gentleman!) in my communication.

I am not worried whatsoever about putting lard on my skin. In any way, shape or form. For any reason.

I was not really posting toward you Val. Just in general. We tend to have to many worriers. Discussion is good. Sorry if it seemed I was talking it down.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

I was not really posting toward you Val. Just in general. We tend to have to many worriers. Discussion is good. Sorry if it seemed I was talking it down.

Whew. lol. That makes me feel better.

Sometimes communication is challenging for me. I try to articulate what I am thinking but it gets muddled or something, because a lot of times, I feel like people aren't getting what I am trying to say. Sorry I assumed.

 

[lenarenee]

Here's how I see it. There are two points of view why one would choose to use or not to use said lard. 1. is for the physical contaminants in it, and 2. is for the principle behind it.

The kidneys and liver are responsible for metabolizing toxins and waste. The fat is where vitamins and nutrients are stored. When it comes to factory farms, I think it's a matter of a lack of nutritional quality versus a storage of toxic waste. That said, I still wouldn't buy grocery store lard because *my* local grocery stores carry lard with BHT in it which is something I personally wish to avoid (not to mention it's banned in several countries).

The second point is the principle behind the matter. Do you want to support what those farms are doing to animals? If you want to avoid both issues, then your solution is to choose a different source of lard and your conscience can be at peace.

Bht concerned me as well; I read that bht isn't absorbed far enough into the skin to for it to enter the body. What have you learned?

The lard I have contains bht, but I use it. However, I will say that I keep an uncolored, unscented, bastille bar on hand (80% organic Costco olive oil, co, and castor) for "special" people like my friend with cancer, and another who stayed with us while undergoing fertility treatments in La Jolla. That way I know with absolute positivity they are as "pure" as possible.

I'm not afraid to use my lard soap, but I would greatly prefer the lard I use be as "clean" as possible. If it weren't cost prohibitive, I would.

 

[lenarenee]

On a wider thought from Lee's comment, we often talk about 'unsaponifiables' as if they are the untouchables and lye is Al Capone. But while many things do not become soap when mixed with lye, I imagine something does indeed happen.

We know that very little goodness is likely to survive some time with Lye Capone, but what does that chemical equation look like? I think that is where Valerie was aiming - if there is some PbO2 (not sure if that exists) in the fat, what does PbO2 + NaOH = ?

Uh, yeah. But my assumption was that lye would most likely kill most of the "bad guys", but what it lye interacting with "abc" actually makes a more potent bad guy??

Well, I've been using my high lard soap for 6 months now, and I still have all of the skin and haven't died yet.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Well, I've been using my high lard soap for 6 months now, and I still have all of the skin and haven't died yet.

Well, that's heartening.

 

[lenarenee]

Btw Valerie, before I found a source for tallow, I bought grass fed organic tallow from ebay. If you trust the farmer, that's the purest form of animal animal fat you can get. It's not as conditioning as lard, but its wonderful in its own right. I actually prefer its lather over lard. (Tallow has some qualities that coconut oil has, so I use about 2% less co when I use tallow)The recipe I used was 20% lard, 5%castor, 12 co, and the rest was grass fed tallow. It's my favorite shower bar. But for handwashing (20x a day)....I love this what this 100% lard bar that cmzha sent me does!

Something for you to think about. To make a tallow recipe more conditioning, you could add 10% shea, or 15% avocado. (they have the highest amount of non-saponifiables.

Hmmm....come to think of it I only have one bar of tallow soap left and two lbs of grass fed tallow in the freezer.....:grin:

 

[lenarenee]

Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock. There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any. We process our own pigs and lard here
Hubby grew up doing it.

Do you know if restrictions are identical for family farms and corporate farms? I seem to remember that they weren't....but its been a long time since I lived on a farm.

Something that concerns me is the use of downer animals for pet and livestock feed. Any idea how what the status of that is?

 

[nebetmiw]

I was referring to corporate farms. Family farms mostly use what they grow or sell offspring.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

If getting lard or tallow in it's rendered state is cost prohibitive, another option would be to render it yourself. This is how I started with soap making. I went down to the local health market and asked for their beef fat trimmings then rendered it. It was free -- they were going to throw it away anyway. If you start selling, I'm sure you'll want to find a good supplier. However if you're just making it for yourself, then it's a bit more manageable; although, it does require more planning and prep.

 

[HappyHomeSoapCo]

Great discussion everyone! And I agree with the others with finding a good source. That's as far as my thinking went with not wanting the "bad stuff" in my soap. I use grass fed tallow from a farm I trust. And I call it a day.

 

[TeresaT]

This has been a great thread. I started to make my own soap because a local store stopped carrying "Grandma's Lye Soap" which is 100% lard soap. I made my first batch of soap with grass-fed lard I bought at my local Whole Foods. A month & a half later, I've rendered my own beef tallow twice and have made about seven batches of soap. I'm trying to find that perfect blend of fats and oils for my skin. Plus, I'm having a ton of fun. My theory on soap making is, if I wouldn't put it IN my body, I'm not going to put it ON my body. So, if it isn't something I would eat, I'm probably not going to use it to make my soap. (Thanks for the tip on the emu oil! Ewww!) Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rule. I'm not going to Shea butter my toast, but I will throw some in my soap at some point. I just don't see me adding colorants, clays, micas or fragrances. That, to me, defeats the purpose of making my own soap: if I want a bunch of "stuff" in my soap, it's a lot cheaper to go to the store and buy a bar or 20. But I sure love a good-smelling soap! I must suffer from MSD - Multiple Soaponality Disorder.

 

[MarlinFlake]

For what it's worth, shea butter is edible. If you have food grade shea butter I'd be curious to hear how it is on toast.