What happens to the bad stuff in animal fat once saponified?

[JayJay]

True - the problem lies in not knowing whether or not you like something. I want to use lard SO bad, but there are some things I need to work out first, before I feel comfortable doing it. Cognitive dissonance is not an option for me.

Totally. Soaping allows for customization. I am guessing that most people make their soaps according to what they believe is best for them. Otherwise we would all just go to the grocery store (those of us who have access) and buy some cheap soap.

It seems that certain reasons for including and excluding ingredients may be more controversial than others on this forum at the moment. (e.g. Reaction to synthetic detergents vs. toxin avoidance). I have no judgements.

It looks like you hit a few nerves with your question because we do not enter discussions with the same underlying assumptions. Nevertheless, your original question as I understood it, was about unsaponifiables in lard. It would be nice if we could just discuss that regardless of whether or not people think that you should be concerned by what's in your soap. Your concerns and preferences are yours and I respect that.

P.S. I love lard in my soap.

 

[nebetmiw]

Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock. There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any. We process our own pigs and lard here
Hubby grew up doing it.

 

[vyadha]

I would love to see some in depth studies on what is suspended in animal fat. I cant imagine an organization willing to pay for a study that actually measures how many micrograms of antibiotics, growth hormones and vaccines are in a kilogram of animal fat.

Along with that, which of these foreign substances breakdown at common cooking and rendering temperatures and which ones don't.

Also, wouldn't the big factory farms try to reuse any of those substances (render and filter the lard) if they were present in any significant amounts?

I mostly render my own lard and tallow from animals Ive raised or hunted so Im not too concerned. And as nebetmiw pointed out, there are a lots of regulations that individuals like myself are unaware of.

Still, I buy lard at Vons when Im out of the wild stuff.

 

[JayJay]

Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock. There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any. We process our own pigs and lard here
Hubby grew up doing it.

That's good to hear. Thanks for sharing. It's good to hear from people with actual experience. Your information actually is making me want to look into this more to clarify my understanding.

I know a family that supplies chickens to a major meat company. She told me that they put antibiotics in the water supply daily to keep the chickens alive. I am not sure whether their operation would qualify as a factory farm, but I know that thousands of chickens are kept inside of a structure. She invited me for a visit, but I was not up for it. I don't like animal smells.

I'm not a farmer and I haven't done any research, but I thought that antibiotics were an industry standard (and a necessity) in factory farms. I have heard several doctors and researchers refer to the public health "problem" in the U.S. of over use of antibiotics in people and in livestock. I know a small farmer who uses no antibiotics in his food or water supply. He talks about their use elsewhere. It has been referred to so many times that I am just taking it as fact. But I certainly don't know for sure.

 

[galaxyMLP]

I would love to see some in depth studies on what is suspended in animal fat. I cant imagine an organization willing to pay for a study that actually measures how many micrograms of antibiotics, growth hormones and vaccines are in a kilogram of animal fat.

Along with that, which of these foreign substances breakdown at common cooking and rendering temperatures and which ones don't.

Also, wouldn't the big factory farms try to reuse any of those substances (render and filter the lard) if they were present in any significant amounts?

Even if you wanted to, you can see vaccines. Vaccines are not a chemical. They are inactivated viruses that cause the body to produce its own antibodies against future viruses of the same kind so when the animal comes in contact with it, the body already knows how to fight it. Antibodies of all kinds are naturally present and they are no different from the ones produced from a vaccine. The inactivated viruses are quickly flushed from the system after vaccination.

I don't think recovery of any of the other substances would be in nearly high enough amount to even begin to cover the costs for extractions.

Personally the only thing I worry about are the hormones, and only for consumption.

In plants, I would be more concerned about a plant picking up some kind of heavy metal from a contaminated environment than anything else.

This is definitely something thought provoking and interesting.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Here are a few links that discuss what pigs ingest in factory farms. There are way too many links to go through them all - I picked the first few that seemed low on agenga/high on information.

http://www.buedelmeatup.com/2013/06/04/antibiotics-pork-production/
http://www.porkgateway.org/FileLibrary/PIGLibrary/Factsheets/a6771v1-0.pdf
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-phil...s-smithfield-buy-could-slightly-clean-us-pork
https://www.animallaw.info/article/...n-factory-farm-conditions-could-improve-human

Jay Jay said something about how we don't all enter into discussions with the same underlying assumptions and I guess that's true, because I entered in this conversation thinking that we all pretty much agree what happens at a factory farm. I was kind of shocked to learn that that isn't true. There are SO many sources of non-biased information out there; it would be impossible to not be exposed to it. As for the atrocities that take place, just because a company with an agenda is the one who shoots the real-life footage doesn't make that footage not true. But for this particular conversation, I think we are best suited to keeping focused on "What does the fat absorb from the pig's body and how is it affected by saponification?" (Both what it ingests and also its own hormones)

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock. There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any. We process our own pigs and lard here
Hubby grew up doing it.

Costly to a small farmer; probably not to a major manufacturer.

If we lived closer, I would just buy my lard from you and be done with it!

(Something tells me that your farm/processing is NOT the kind I am discussing here. Unless you sell millions of pounds of lard in little blue buckets at Walmarts around the world.)

 

[vyadha]

Even if you wanted to, you can see vaccines. Vaccines are not a chemical. They are inactivated viruses that cause the body to produce its own antibodies against future viruses of the same kind so when the animal comes in contact with it, the body already knows how to fight it. Antibodies of all kinds are naturally present and they are no different from the ones produced from a vaccine. The inactivated viruses are quickly flushed from the system after vaccination.

I don't think recovery of any of the other substances would be in nearly high enough amount to even begin to cover the costs for extractions.

Personally the only thing I worry about are the hormones, and only for consumption.

In plants, I would be more concerned about a plant picking up some kind of heavy metal from a contaminated environment than anything else.

This is definitely something thought provoking and interesting.

Exactly my point. The vaccines are gone, the antibiotics are in such a minute amount they have no measurable effect and maybe the hormones are lingering.

Still, Id like to see a solid study.

 

[TVivian]

This is probably a pointless comment on this thread, but here is what I wonder daily when I read Facebook or am bombarded by articles about "toxins" "hormones" "air pollution" "water pollution" "chemicals, pesticides, cancer, GMO's etc... Why does our average life expectancy keep going up? If everything around us is so dangerous, wouldn't we all be dying younger and younger? Life expectancy for people in the early 1900's was around 50 years of age and that was when everything people ate, drank, and breathed was "clean"

We all worry too much I think.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

Here's how I see it. There are two points of view why one would choose to use or not to use said lard. 1. is for the physical contaminants in it, and 2. is for the principle behind it.

The kidneys and liver are responsible for metabolizing toxins and waste. The fat is where vitamins and nutrients are stored. When it comes to factory farms, I think it's a matter of a lack of nutritional quality versus a storage of toxic waste. That said, I still wouldn't buy grocery store lard because *my* local grocery stores carry lard with BHT in it which is something I personally wish to avoid (not to mention it's banned in several countries).

The second point is the principle behind the matter. Do you want to support what those farms are doing to animals? If you want to avoid both issues, then your solution is to choose a different source of lard and your conscience can be at peace.

 

[Susie]

I am only addressing the skin absorption issue, as I have no pertinent info on the other issues that has not already been mentioned.

Skin's PRIMARY job is to keep bad stuff out of our bodies. The multiple layers of dead cells are meant to trap and carry away things that do not belong inside of us. This lowers my concern about BHT/etc quite a bit.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Skin's PRIMARY job is to keep bad stuff out of our bodies.

And also to cover up our creepy skeletons. I mean, otherwise, we'd all look like that guy from Hellraiser. :wtf:

On a serious note, I appreciate all the thoughtful replies.

I am having a really hard time formulating a recipe that isn't drying to my skin, and I am sick of being itchy. I have gone as high as I can with olive oil as I can't stand the smell of it and I dislike the long cure times for it to get hard, even with HP. I think I am going to try out another lard recipe today - that might be helpful on all counts.

 

[shunt2011]

And also to cover up our creepy skeletons. I mean, otherwise, we'd all look like that guy from Hellraiser. :wtf:

On a serious note, I appreciate all the thoughtful replies.

I am having a really hard time formulating a recipe that isn't drying to my skin, and I am sick of being itchy. I have gone as high as I can with olive oil as I can't stand the smell of it and I dislike the long cure times for it to get hard, even with HP. I think I am going to try out another lard recipe today - that might be helpful on all counts.

Try a high lard soap. You will be pleasantly surprised at how conditioning it is to your skin. I make mostly vegetable oil based soaps but do love my lard too.

 

[pamielynn]

People just don't give our skin enough credit for doing it's job
I am in the camp that pretty much nothing in soap gets through to the vascular system and believe that IF there were any dangerous "toxins" in the raw ingredients, the soapmaker would shoulder the risk through inhalation.

But, it is always good to question. If humans didn't question the world around us, we'd still be throwing rocks at the moon.

 

[LBussy]

Hold a pill of penicillin.

Take a pill of penicillin

Which one gets into your bloodstream?

The skin is an amazing barrier. It protects us every day. You might scream and yell if traces of solvents are found in pomace olive oil, yet you walk through the exhaust of a car in a parking lot and you inhale far more dangerous solvents.

Arguments like this start with the assumptions that:

1. These chemicals survive the processing to get to you
2. The levels are somehow significant
3. Your skin will absorb them magically

I think the burden of proof is on the person trying to convince someone that there is danger, not the other way around when the body of evidence says there are no health risks.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

Hold a pill of penicillin.

Take a pill of penicillin

Which one gets into your bloodstream?

The skin is an amazing barrier. It protects us every day. You might scream and yell if traces of solvents are found in pomace olive oil, yet you walk through the exhaust of a car in a parking lot and you inhale far more dangerous solvents.

Arguments like this start with the assumptions that:

1. These chemicals survive the processing to get to you
2. The levels are somehow significant
3. Your skin will absorb them magically

I think the burden of proof is on the person trying to convince someone that there is danger, not the other way around when the body of evidence says there are no health risks.

I am curious as to what the levels of these substances are in the fat of animals and yes, I am curious as to how those things interact with our skin, but mostly, I just want to know, on a scientific level, what actually HAPPENS to the substances in fat that aren't pure fat when the fat saponifies. SOMETHING happens to whatever trace amounts of "other" stuff that is in fat, and I just want to know what that something is.

I think my question is much simpler than how I am presenting it.

I am simply wondering.. if there is something there, ANYTHING, when the fat is saponified, where does that something go? What molecular shape does it take? What does it become?

edited to add: Also, I didn't mean to start an argument. That was merely social ineptitude on my part, as it never occured to me that my questions might upset people. And I am not out to "prove" anything, as it is painfully obvious that I don't have all the facts for which to prove anything to begin with. It's the facts I am seeking, not proving anything in particular.. I have no agenda. I am not out to quantify levels of "badness" or what should be concerning and what shouldn't. I just want to know where it GOES. LOL.

 

[Susie]

I am a nurse, I have a good friend that is a compounding pharmacist that makes many transdermal medications. The secret to getting meds through the skin is Emu oil. It is the only thing they can find to carry larger molecules through the skin. It also causes the vegan group to froth at the mouth. Oh, well. They have the choice not to use those meds. I do tell people who make their own body products not to use Emu oil, though, as you really don't want all that stuff in your system.

The question, I think, should not so much be, "Where does all the bad stuff go?", but more, "Is there bad stuff still in that lard to worry about?" Which, to me, is a more pertinent question. Because I have spent the best part of two days trying to find some sort of proof that bad stuff actually survives the rendering and filtering process to even end up in the lard. And I have yet to find one credible source that says that it does. Just more fear mongers mongering fear. I will keep looking, though, because this issue probably needs to be addressed here somewhere so we all have an answer we can base decisions on.

If you don't like olive oil, and you have dry skin, you're going to adore lard soaps. I was using a bar with 55% lard day before yesterday, then swapped to the 80% lard yesterday, and I remembered just how awesome the high lard soaps are.

 

[valerieinthegallery]

I am a nurse, I have a good friend that is a compounding pharmacist that makes many transdermal medications. The secret to getting meds through the skin is Emu oil. It is the only thing they can find to carry larger molecules through the skin. It also causes the vegan group to froth at the mouth. Oh, well. They have the choice not to use those meds. I do tell people who make their own body products not to use Emu oil, though, as you really don't want all that stuff in your system.

The question, I think, should not so much be, "Where does all the bad stuff go?", but more, "Is there bad stuff still in that lard to worry about?" Which, to me, is a more pertinent question. Because I have spent the best part of two days trying to find some sort of proof that bad stuff actually survives the rendering and filtering process to even end up in the lard. And I have yet to find one credible source that says that it does. Just more fear mongers mongering fear. I will keep looking, though, because this issue probably needs to be addressed here somewhere so we all have an answer we can base decisions on.

If you don't like olive oil, and you have dry skin, you're going to adore lard soaps. I was using a bar with 55% lard day before yesterday, then swapped to the 80% lard yesterday, and I remembered just how awesome the high lard soaps are.

ok.. our questions are similar, framed a bit differently. But I can see the subtle difference. That is all I am wondering as well. Is there anything there by the time the animal is slaughtered? And if there is, how does saponification affect it scientifically speaking?

There might not be an acceptable, accurate answer to this that we can find and in that case, I guess I will have to let it go. It's just something I wonder about, working with the knowledge that fat absorbs things in the body.

Interesting tidbit about the emu oil. I don't think I would ever find myself drawn to using that particular oil, but it's good to know!

Years ago, I was in Edgecomb, Maine and I was driving on a back road and all of a sudden this THING runs out in front of my car and I slammed on my brakes as I watched it run into the field on the other side. I just sat there like "What the heck WAS that?! A tiny black OSTRICH??"

Turns out that there used to an emu farm there and a few years prior, they had gotten loose and some of them were still living in the area - feral emus!

I digress.

I haven't decided what % to do the lard soap yet. Am making it shortly, so I guess I should figure it out. Was going to start out around 60%.

 

[Obsidian]

That sounds like a big foot sighting, what was that weird thing running across the road lol.

I don't think anyone really knows what non oil contaminates turn into once its been saponified. We don't even really know what some of the additives we purposely put into soap turn in. I mean, what happens to different herbal teas or veggies? I know thats not the same as antibiotic residue but you know what I mean.

I'd still rather use handmade soap made with polluted animals and veggy oils then the chemical cocktail that is commercial bath and body washes.

 

[new12soap]

Food animals are not fed or injected with poison. Antibiotics and hormones are water soluble, not fat soluble. If they were still present in the animal, they would be rendered out with the water and not remain in the finished product.

There are also different classification of animal fats. Those designated for human consumption (food grade) are rigorously tested for any contaminants and if any are found, the fat is discarded.

In other words, it is very highly unlikely that commercial lard contains any of the stuff you are concerned about.

However, to get back to your question, IF the fat did somehow contain a molecule or two of something you didn't want, and IF that molecule did survive the rendering process and the testing, and IF it somehow made it into your soap pot, I would guess (and this is really just a guess) that the lye would shred those little molecules to bits and break them down into harmless atoms. Most of those additives are acidic, and acid + alkaline (lye) usually results in a salt and some leftover water.

I also think that another poster brought up an excellent point about if there are indeed any unwanted ingredients stored in the fats that can survive the process, then we need to ask the same question of all plant oils, too. While they are not given antibiotics or growth hormones they are treated with pesticides (yes, even organic farming uses pesticides), they process the same polluted air and water.

Again, I think most of these additives are water soluble and would not survive the process it takes to get them to the market shelf, but if they did I am guessing the lye would just turn it into salt.

JM2C