Want to stop using palm oil, how to finish what I have left?

[AcornSky]

Thank you for that seven - I had the same question about Trex, which is also covered in that thread.

 

[grayceworks]

I have searched and searched, and all I can find is that a few years ago, they reformulated just like Crisco did, to eliminate hydrogenated vegetable oils. Although Crisco still contains some, and Cookeen has completely eliminated them.

Based on this, and the following fatty acid profile chart about half-way down the following web page, I'm inclined to think it's palm shortening. Has a nearly identical fatty acid profile, all the other cooking oils are very different.

http://internationalfooddictionary.com/choosing-vegetable-oils-for-cooking/

Since the reformulation to remove the HVA's, I would use either palm, or the new Crisco, but new Crisco still has hydrogenated soy, and Cookeen has none, so I'd say use palm.

Edit- looking at the chart, you can see the fatty acid profile is quite different from crisco.
Edited again - they're using old crisco on the chart - almost the same as cottonseed. But you can still see that the cookeen is mainly palm.

 

[aab1]

I just wanted to add the soy oil in Crisco is not only hydrogenated but also genetically modified which most people are opposed to as independent studies show GMOs cause deadly health problems which is why they're banned in many countries (the manufacturer's studies that "prove" GMOs are safe are falsified in multiple ways to get to that fraudulent result). Although GMOs probably don't cause health problems when used in soap, I still think we shouldn't support companies that are willing to harm our health for their profits, so I avoid GMOs in non food items as well.

 

[nframe]

Cookeen

Thank you all for that. I will have a go and select Palm oil in Soapcalc and we'll see what happens. I will only make a small batch in case it's bad and will keep you posted.

 

[aab1]

I made a batch of grayceworks soaps last week and used one of the small ones 24 hours later. It's amazing how gentle and long lasting it is for a soap that was used 24 hours after pouring, it's like other soaps after a month of curing, even longer lasting than other soaps that cured for a month.

However I did the maths and for the size I normally sell $6 I'd have to sell these $12, I'll try to sell a similar recipe at that price to see if it sells but I also want to cheapen it significantly to a recipe I can use as the base for my regular (non salt) soaps. So far I came up with this (haven't made a batch yet):

50% coconut oil, 20% shea butter, 10% apricot seed oil, 10% avocado oil, 5% cocoa butter, 5% castor oil

I was thinking of superfatting this at 10% to compensate for the high coconut oil. I think this will end up at about half the cost and still contains 25% butter, do you think this recipe would make a good soap that will be long lasting enough although certainly not as much as the 35% shea 20% mango butter soap.

Thanks

 

[aab1]

I was wondering what % of palm oil is required in soap to make the soap longer lasting and if I sub with shea/cacao/mango butter would the same % get similar results?

Thanks

 

[grayceworks]

Hi, sorry it's taken so long to reply. I don't know if I'd go with that much coconut... there's the drying factor, but also the coconut oil is the more water-soluble one, meaning it is the one that dissolves faster, which i exactly what you're trying to avoid. I don't know for sure what percent palm to suggest, because that depends on your other oils too. Remember DeeAnna's long-lasting number is hardness-cleansing=long-lasting the higher that result the better for bar longevity. Shea and mango both have similar numbers to palm, and I've found they give similar 'long-lasting' numbers when used in the same amounts as palm as a direct substitute. Maybe try 35% total between them, instead of 25 and 35.

You could try something like --
25% coconut
15% avocado
15% apricot kernel
9% castor
8% cocoa butter
10% mango
18% shea.

Or 23% coconut and a total of 30% mango/shea either combined, or just one or the other.

 

[Dorymae]

I still won't use palm yet. Although they are working toward solutions environmentally the current regulation allows business that have a "plan" (within 5 years) toward becoming sustainable to be labeled as sustainable before they are.

I can see a lot (too much) room for abuse of the system.

They are getting there and I'm glad something is being done, I just don't think they are as "tight" as they should be. For me the issue is about the forests and the animals, the general business practices in most of the industry are atrocious.

 

[aab1]

Hi, sorry it's taken so long to reply. I don't know if I'd go with that much coconut... there's the drying factor, but also the coconut oil is the more water-soluble one, meaning it is the one that dissolves faster, which i exactly what you're trying to avoid. I don't know for sure what percent palm to suggest, because that depends on your other oils too. Remember DeeAnna's long-lasting number is hardness-cleansing=long-lasting the higher that result the better for bar longevity. Shea and mango both have similar numbers to palm, and I've found they give similar 'long-lasting' numbers when used in the same amounts as palm as a direct substitute. Maybe try 35% total between them, instead of 25 and 35.

You could try something like --
25% coconut
15% avocado
15% apricot kernel
9% castor
8% cocoa butter
10% mango
18% shea.

Or 23% coconut and a total of 30% mango/shea either combined, or just one or the other.

Last night I made a batch that's kind of in between what I had thought of and your recommendation. Since my goal is to reduce the cost and mango butter adds about the same long lasting effect as shea which is about a third the price I used more shea and no mango butter.

This is what I did:

30% coconut oil
25% shea butter
20% apricot kernel oil
15% avocado oil
5% cocoa butter
5% castor oil

I've poured it last night and it's still too soft to unmold but it didn't gel despite me using my mold that's most prone to gelling (I wanted to test a worst case scenario) and it's a very white soap, so so far it's looking good. I just need to calculate the cost of this recipe and most important wait and see how this soap performs after curing.

Thanks

 

[kmarvel]

Obsidian, I am buying some fresh rendered lard from a friend on Saturday and make my first batch of soap with lard to replace Palm oil. I currently use OO, CCO, castor oil, Palm oil, grapeseed oil and shea butter. I just replace the lard for the palm oil, correct?? And I can use the words "sodium lardate" on my labels for ingredients??

 

[Dorymae]

You'll need to recheck your lye amount, other than that you should be good. If you are putting ingredients on your label and want to be compliant then you need to list Lard. You can however use the INCI in parentheses after the common name if you so desire.

 

[grayceworks]

I know it's just been a few days, but how did this recipe turn out so far? I can't wait to hear what you think, both new and cured! I like apricot kernel oil almost as much as almond oil, and I like avocado oil a lot also, seems to leave a nice feel after rinsing to where I don't need lotion.

 

[elmtree]

I know this thread is old but I'm wondering when you calculate the long lasting number for example I have a bar that has a cleansing of 18 and hardness of 37 so it's long lasting number would be 19. What is this on a scale of? 1-30, 1-100, 10-50?? How do I determine if
My number is good or bad?

 

[grayceworks]

I know this thread is old but I'm wondering when you calculate the long lasting number for example I have a bar that has a cleansing of 18 and hardness of 37 so it's long lasting number would be 19. What is this on a scale of? 1-30, 1-100, 10-50?? How do I determine if
My number is good or bad?

Well, I think it's kindof subjective. Lower numbers don't last as long. Play with soapcalc some. Do you have a recipe that washes away faster than you like? What number does it get? Got a recipe that lasts forever? What number does it get? For example, we lnow 100% coconut soap gets used up fast, because it's so soluble. Compare that with a soap that's high in palm, mango, shea, or lard, and see what range of numbers you get. That will give you an idea of where you want your soap to be, based on wjat other properties you also want it to have.

 

[aab1]

I know it's just been a few days, but how did this recipe turn out so far? I can't wait to hear what you think, both new and cured! I like apricot kernel oil almost as much as almond oil, and I like avocado oil a lot also, seems to leave a nice feel after rinsing to where I don't need lotion.

Sorry for the delay. I had made a small test batch (560 grams) and had accidentally poured in about 40 extra grams of castor oil in the pot once other oils were already in, so I compensated by using 40g less of shea butter which has about exactly the same SAP value.

This resulted in a soap that's still soft after a few weeks of curing but it ended up with 12% castor instead of 5% and 17% shea instead of 25%.

I haven't yet re-tried it as I've been very busy but will any day now.

Thanks

 

[SopiaCopia]

Not a fan of palm.

I've only used palm oil, and palm kernel oil a couple of times. And, every time I used it, it left an undesirable smell, even though I added EO's. It smelled like food to me, even straight out of the bottle. Maybe I bought the wrong kind, idk. I always use olive oil, coconut oil, & castor oil. It makes a great bar! I mean, I mix it up sometimes with different butters and super fats, but you get the idea. Anyone else have this food smell in their soaps when using palm?

 

[seven]

^^^
nope.

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

I've only used palm oil, and palm kernel oil a couple of times. And, every time I used it, it left an undesirable smell, even though I added EO's. It smelled like food to me, even straight out of the bottle. Maybe I bought the wrong kind, idk. I always use olive oil, coconut oil, & castor oil. It makes a great bar! I mean, I mix it up sometimes with different butters and super fats, but you get the idea. Anyone else have this food smell in their soaps when using palm?

Where did you buy your Palm oil? And what brand? A few months ago, I purchased some vegetable ghee (100% palm oil) from a local middle eastern market because I wanted to try palm to see how it feels in soap. It was a pale yellow and had a weird smell, like parmesian mixed with butter maybe? I honestly did not care for it and prefer my tallow/lard soaps. a bit of that weird smell stayed in the soap also, so I threw out that palm oil.