Vegan / Vegetarian Choices

[joy.]

You should read about the very complex and extensive communication systems that trees have. They recognize their kin, other trees that sprang from their own seeds, and will preferentially send them nutrients, although every tree is intimately and extensively tied to every other tree in its vicinity. Their communication system is compared to our own neural networks. Does that mean we should never use wood products?

All plants communicate, respond, and have more to them that we generally acknowledge. They are different from us but no less alive for all that. We eat them without thinking about it.

It can get very complicated quickly when you think about it.

The first thing that popped into my head when I read this:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXIdcA6mlV4[/ame]

But seriously, I do believe we should respect all living things, and try to make sustainable choices. For me, fruitarianism is a bit extreme, but I can respect the choice.

Studies suggest the earliest humans were actually fruitarians, eating seeds, nuts and fruits that didn't harm the plant. Our jaws, teeth and digestive tracts are designed to primarily eat plant matter with animal proteins being an occasional treat.

What about those that don't have access to more humanely grown meat or eggs, or cannot afford the higher prices of such to feed themselves or their families?

IrishLass

I think that's one of the main problems with the current system, and it will take enough people caring about the humane treatment of food-producing animals to change the way they are handled and housed in mass-production plants.

In some cases, people just don't know where to look for humane options. I can buy a dozen eggs from healthy, happy, humanely-raised, pasture-roaming chickens on craigslist for less than I'd pay at the grocery store. The "Farm and Garden" section is full of people that raise their own food and have excess to share - milk, eggs, meat, you name it. Another option is to raise your own milk/eggs/meat, which is generally less expensive. That's why I got chickens in the first place - I wanted humane eggs and didn't know where to get them. Chickens weren't allowed in the neighborhood I lived in at the time, so I got three miniature chickens and they were indoor/outdoor pets. Minis are considered "exotic pets" in many places. Reducing meat intake to a couple times a week or cutting out other items like soda or chips saves enough money to allow more expensive humane meat to be purchased when you do eat it, so that's another option, and a healthier choice.

I don't need you to tell me how great vegetarianism is and how it's going to save me from cancer. I don't need PETA to tell me why eating meat or wearing fur is murder. What I need is for someone to stand up and say wasting food is flat out wrong and start feeding the people of this nation that don't have the food they need. Share the love. Share the food. Share the wealth. No one in America should go to bed hungry. And no one in America should be sleeping on the streets or in cars. Yet they do. EVERY SINGLE DAY. I am sure people at food banks and homeless shelters do not care if their food is "humanely raised" or organic. I'm sure they're only thinking, "Thank God I get to eat today."

I'm done.

I really didn't want to respond to this- I'm happy to have a polite conversation about this issue, and this comment is not polite. But this attitude is part of the problem, so I'll do my best to respond politely because a response is needed.

Most people are glad when information is shared that shows something causes cancer. Not sure why I need to be yelled at about that. And I didn't say vegetarianism is great, and said nothing about fur. I offered information about the inhumane treatment of animals in typical factory farms, and suggested there are other ways to eat, including humanely raised meat, that don't cause animals to suffer.

There are two separate issues here. I agree, no one should be going hungry. No one should be sleeping on the streets. I do my part to help solve those problems. Abusing animals in factory farms doesn't solve this problem. I wish I had a magical solution, but I don't, other than more people need to care about the issue. I've tried donating extra milk to shelters and they can't accept it because of ridiculous raw milk laws. The laws should change.

But laws regarding the humane treatment of food-producing animals should also change. Just because I care about the treatment of animals doesn't mean I don't care about people, too. But less people actually do care about animals, so someone needs to stand up and speak for them.

Did you bother googling "factory farms" or look into how chickens, pigs and cows are treated in mass-production facilities and slaughtering plants? It's nauseating. Again, I won't go into details here, but I guarantee if your neighbor did to a dog or cat what's done to these animals, you'd be outraged and they'd be in jail. All I'm saying is that animals have feelings and emotions- they feel pain, they suffer, they're abused and treated inhumanely in the food-production industry, and it's not right. Choosing to ignore the problem because there are other problems in the world is not an excuse.

At what level do we take it? We often class fear as an emotion but it is in many cases just an instinct. A deer will react to a breaking twig in an instinctual way, not an emotional one.

If everything every animal does is just instinct, what makes you any different? I don't say this in a rude manner, but you can take it to an extreme level either way. Of course some of their behaviors are instinctual, but that doesn't mean they all are. When an animal can clearly experience pain and suffering, I believe it's wrong to cause that. If you want to eat the deer, which probably lived a generally happy life, kill it as quickly and painlessly as possible. That's not what happens in factory farms.

Do fish have emotions? I don't think so. They might instinctively recognize the shape that comes to the tank just before the food comes, but that is all.

I don't know of any studies specifically on fish (though I think they probably do have emotions) but plenty have been done with dogs, including recent studies using MRIs to map their brains. They can process, think, rationalize, problem solve, determine fairness, and feel emotion, including activity in the "love" area of their brains when they hear their person's voice. It's not just about communication - they are capable of thinking on the same level as an average 3 year old human. I don't know of specific studies on livestock, but after living with them I can safely say my goats are more intelligent than my dog, and have just as much personality and emotion.

 

[Dahila]

joy our teeth are designed for meat and veggies, Early human had harvested the nuts, fruits whatever was available. Meat was not so often this is why we are design to eat everything. Back to school and learn what role teeth have.
Animals are food chain this is the way it is. I love animals but learned from my family and environment not to dwell on them. Pet is my dog, cat, even guinea, not the pig. Pig is a meat. Of course I would love to have a choice and buy grain feeded, humanly raised meat, but the money for that is not available for me.
I had similar expierence with the body shutting down due the lack of nutrition. I was 19 and became vegetarian (mahatma Gandhi had a lot to do with it) when my weight went down to 100 lb with height of 5'4 my family said no!!! I was vegetarian for two years, preparing myself to be vegan...........After I got very sick, I started slowly getting back on normal food. When I was young meat was good, better than organic one now. It took me like 6 months to recover. I agree with all above about education, and taking supplements, well most of them is money maker and do not provide much for the body.
When there is two plates one with meat one vegetarian, I usually pick up the last one. My husband would not like to be on veggies........... My grandchild like meat, I cook it and eat it. I still love nature and animals..........

 

[cmzaha]

Organic is not all that great either. I have a beekeeper vendor friend whom told me a very interesting thing about organic. They put several hives in an "Organic" orange grove and another in a non organic orange grove, a lot of hives in both groves. The scary thing is every bee in the organic grove died. They lost thousands of dollars in bees and products. Organic farms are great for the state, they get thousands of dollars just to certify a small area organic. Another vendor friend that has a huge farm has a few acres designated as "Organic," this is after paying 10k in fees per acre. He still uses the same spray as he uses on the balance of his farm, just at a different schedule and rate. Guess who benefits from Organic farmers, the departments that control it, like anything in our bureaucracy. My granddaughter has chickens whom have the run of the yard if they choose, guess where they choose to stay. In the coop in their nesting boxes, so much for free range chickens. Are these happy chickies, yep they even have polished nails, and love her, but love their nesting boxes. Non-toxic polish if anyone wonders...

I do not put anyone done for their dietary choices, my daughter, the one with the chickens, is a vegetarian for the most part. She does eat a few eggs and a little meat but this is mostly for health reasons, and sadly we still have not been able to get all her crowns done where she has implants. Her Rheumatoid doctor does regular blood work and it does work for her, but her growing 8 yr old is required to eat meat at least a few times during the week.

Theresa is quite right, many or most in this economy cannot afford to purchase so called humanely raised meat, eggs, milk etc. There was I time I could but anymore, so I have to trust the grocery store to not sell tainted. Who says Craig's list does not have people selling tainted products, I trust very little on Craig's list. I would never buy raw milk, but then I hate milk . Growing up I did have the pleasure of getting butter made from fresh raw cream from a family member that raised cows. I still remember that fresh churned butter and homemade biscuits, but now my butter comes from Costco and so does my mom's whom is 90 yrs old. Wow, how has she lived so long eating meat and produce from the grocery store and Costco...

We are Hunters & Gatherers

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

That is my point, joy - a dog is one thing. A fish or a chicken is something else. Plus, a domesticated animal verses a wild animal would have different responses.

I think it was the late great Kurt Kobain that said it's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings

 

[cherrycoke216]

I do hope this does not get me into troubles. Long time lurker, thread post newbie here.

I think people here ( especially these omnivores ) are showing greatest restrain. You called a bunch of people gross, and they are complete stranger to you, and you expect they behave like your nephew? Have a laugh about it?

Then you called Teresa have a attitude problem. I think she doesn't sound " not polite or yelling " to me. It's a psychological response called "fight or flight" when encounter with danger or something you don't like.
( after you make some claims about you don't have "respect" for people who buy mass production meat. So they tell you someone might not have an option here. They'd be grateful for just have a BITE really. )
Yes animal farm can be brutal, if the government and congress don't do a thing about it, show me what can we do as an omnivore? ( other than convert us into vegan/ vegetarian or some other propaganda )

And vegans/ vegetarians do have cancer. It just won't be zero.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29...-diet-changes-human-dna-raising-risk-of-canc/

It's all about moderation.

And on the topic here, I'm omnivore who have loads of homemade whole fruit smoothies( with fruit peels/ skins/ seeds) every morning. ( morning lacto-ovo-vegetarian)I agree someone said "first world conceit "and people getting killed in war is a priority than mass production meat, and also what Teresa said" share the love. Share the food . Share the wealth."
( sad that I cannot " LIKE" the post coz I'm on iPhone app )

It is when you have the bling, than you have the option to skip " mass production anything". Or you have the time and space to raise them yourself. World hunger is worse than you can imagine. And we're just bourgeois / middle class being a snob picking on what's in our dinner plate (or not ).

 

[Dahila]

Cherry thanks , I wanted to say it, We all are very polite here and very tolerant. Vegans are miserable people trying to convert everyone. it is childish. Teresa is incredible person and she is never impolite, she just tells what she things. No attitude on her part, Tolerant and accepting person.
The tone of Joy post is kind of aggressive,
Veganism is a trend now it will pass. like all of the diets. One day you going back to eat meat like everyone else. I am old and had seen a lot of people like you. Discussion is good though, it is always good to talk
Just do not judge other people please

 

[BrewerGeorge]

The idea that our canine teeth are made for nuts is specious, too. Every primate is omnivorous in nature, even if they only supplement their plants with bugs.

But have you ever seen video of a troop of chimpanzees hunting? They usually hunt monkeys and eat them raw.

 

[Dahila]

Chimpanzees usually hunt small baboons. Vegan diet is good for a cow, or even elephant, Would you feed tiger with nuts)?

 

[Susie]

Primates are omnivores. Period. No matter what you say about humans, primates are omnivores.

TeresaT was being exceedingly polite. Just because she has an agenda that is not yours does not mean she is not being polite.

Which is the exact issue here. Just because we do not agree with you, it does not mean we are being rude, impolite, or anything else bad or wrong. It means we are stating our opinions.

You chose the most crude wording possible to introduce your opinion elsewhere, then decided to come here to state your opinion. I am glad you got it out of someone else's thread, but it does not mean that we are going to agree with you here. If you only want people to agree with you, you need to go to a vegan forum.

 

[Navaria]

Joy, I noticed something when this first started on the other thread. There was a post about using silk and it not dissolving properly. You made the comment about "when you use silk". You know the silk worms are boiled alive to get that silk right? I use silk as well. Nothing wrong with it. But I do have a problem when you say you have no respect for people who don't use humane animal products when you yourself admit to using the product of a boiled alive insect. Just because you don't actually eat it, doesn't mean you don't consume it. You can't have it both ways. That's hypocritical.

 

[cmzaha]

Joy, I noticed something when this first started on the other thread. There was a post about using silk and it not dissolving properly. You made the comment about "when you use silk". You know the silk worms are boiled alive to get that silk right? I use silk as well. Nothing wrong with it. But I do have a problem when you say you have no respect for people who don't use humane animal products when you yourself admit to using the product of a boiled alive insect. Just because you don't actually eat it, doesn't mean you don't consume it. You can't have it both ways. That's hypocritical.

A lot of the Tussah Silk is harvested after the silk moth has emerged, problem is we have no proof the moth is emerged unless we buy cocoons. There are a few methods of killing the moth, one is boiling, another drying in the sun and freeze drying. Freeze drying is probably the most humane way to kill the silk moth. The reason for killing the moth and not letting it escape is because they do not want the silk broken if it is going to be spooled.
I will mention the silk moth does not lead a great life, they do not fly and are blind, although they are quite pretty. They have one purpose that is to mate and die. So the point of this was if Joy thinks she is purchasing humane silk I would not count on it, or is raising her own silk worms. Unless you have a Mulberry tree raising silk worms is very expensive and much cheaper to buy Tussah Silk. The people harvesting the cocoons need the money and I doubt most care how the cocoon is treated.

 

[Navaria]

The people harvesting the cocoons need the money and I doubt most care how the cocoon is treated.

This was my whole point. You don't know. But you know most all the methods used involve killing the silk worm in some way.

 

[fuzz-juzz]

Unless you've been to other's peoples shoes you can't and shouldn't judge someone's choices.
As a child of war I can only thank our chickens and occasional cows head (yes head) and offal that kept us from being hungry.
And in those 8 years of my life I couldn't really choose what I want to eat, it was eat or go hungry. And to this day, I am only picky about few things: celery and licorice haha.
Animals are awesome, they are great source of food, we should respect them by eating less of their products. I doubt anyone follows good old "deck of card" size of meat per serve. Not to mention all the milkshakes, ice creams, cakes etc we have to have in a day. Everything in a moderation is a key, and maybe then, some changes to how and where animals are raised. Reduce the amount we need and animals may not need to be kept in overcrowded and horrible places. And also, refuse to buy from questionable sources. They are small changes, but if all of us can get onto the same idea, it should make a difference.
But animals eat animals. it's the part of the nature, look around you, you wouldn't feed banana or an apple to the tiger etc...
If you have pet animals what do you feed them? I hope it's not vegan diet let's say for cats. It will kill them really fast. I've heard of people doing it and to be honest, THAT is animal abuse.