Using fresh lemon or lime juice in soap..?

[DeeAnna]

"...Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap..."

You're thinking an acid + soap reaction is the same as an acid + base reaction, and it's not. Soap is a buffer, not a base. Adding acid to soap doesn't greatly reduce the pH unless you add so much acid that the buffering ability of the soap is overwhelmed.

When you add acid to the soap pot, yes, it reacts with NaOH. This will increase the superfat if you don't add extra NaOH to compensate, as many of us know to do.

When you add acid to soap, it decomposes into fatty acids and that also increases the superfat.

 

[cmzaha]

Earlene, Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap meaning that less of the oils would saponify giving you what amounts to a larger superfat which would make the soap softer to cut and not have as good characteristics as your normal soap formula might have. Besides, the Lemon "scent" won't hold up at all because it is a top note and citrus essential oils are notorious for disappearing from the soap scent in a matter of days or weeks!

I do think you have a wrong skew of what Earlene was saying. I understood it as she cut up some cured soap and put them in lemon juice to see how long it would take to dissolve. I could be wrong but I am sure Earlene will straighten me out.

Just because you use a higher superfat does not mean you lower ph. Oils do vary in ph so some combinations will make a difference in ph. The ph of soap runs between 8-11, after all, it is an alkaline product and cannot be neutral.

You are not lowering the ph of soap by using lemon juice. Earlene mentions she used lemon juice as full water replacement by compensating for the juice with the extra lye needed to react with the lemon juice to create sodium citrate, which will help cut soap scum.

I do think you have a wrong skew of what Earlene was saying. I understood it as she cut up some cured soap and put them in lemon juice to see how long it would take to dissolve. I could be wrong but I am sure Earlene will straighten me out.

Just because you use a higher superfat does not mean you lower ph. Oils do vary in ph so some combinations will make a difference in ph. The ph of soap runs between 8-11, after all, it is an alkaline product and cannot be neutral.

You are not lowering the ph of soap by using lemon juice. Earlene mentions she used lemon juice as full water replacement by compensating for the juice with the extra lye needed to react with the lemon juice to create sodium citrate, which will help cut soap scum.

ETA: OOPS DeeAnna answered much better than me before I saw her post.

Double OOPS, I meant to edit not quote my post... and cannot figure out how to delete it. As we all know I am really new to the forum....

 

[DeeAnna]

Don't delete it, Carolyn. You're saying something different than I am and I think it's worth reading. Thanks for sharing your perspective -- I think it's valuable!

 

[StoneCottageSoapworks]

"...Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap..."

You're thinking an acid + soap reaction is the same as an acid + base reaction, and it's not. Soap is a buffer, not a base. Adding acid to soap doesn't greatly reduce the pH unless you add so much acid that the buffering ability of the soap is overwhelmed.

When you add acid to the soap pot, yes, it reacts with NaOH. This will increase the superfat if you don't add extra NaOH to compensate, as many of us know to do.

When you add acid to soap, it decomposes into fatty acids and that also increases the superfat.

No, DeAnna, I am not thinking "acid + soap"! Oils are made up of fatty acids which are turned into soap by using a base, in this case the base is NaOH. The amount of this reaction is dependent upon how much of the acidic Lemon Juice is used in your formula. It will lower the pH the base solution (lye + water) and therefore not saponify as much of the fatty acid based oils as the original solution would, without the addition of the Lemon Juice. That does change the superfat of the soap and would also change the consistency to some extent. Other than the fatty acids of the oils, I myself, would not add anything else that is acidic like Lemon Juice to a formulation.

 

[HaniS]

1- If Lemon juice was added instead of water in the lye/water solution, it will neutralize some of the Naoh. This means that the water/lye concentration becomes less than that which is required to neutralize the oil (or oils) and turn it into soap. Depending on other factors, This MIGHT lower PH (increase acidity) in the end product.

2- If lemon juice was added after the soap has fully neutralized, and there is no more free Naoh, the Lemon juice will break down the soap bond. This will result in having Free Acid again (from acid that was broken from soap) and Free Naoh that became free because it has lost its bond with the Acid that came from the oil (or oils).

The outcome of this is soap that did not achieve adequate level of neutralizing. But it can also mean that the soap became Super Fated; sometimes super fat is required to achieve and can be an advantage..

So on the other hand, adding Lemon Juice might not affect PH because both became free (free acid) and Base (free Naoh) and both remained in the mixture or the body of soap.

This also means that if the quantity of lemon juice that is being added is high, both the acidity of Lemon Juice, and the advanced acid over base structure of soap (because of point 1 above) will make the soap more acid (lower Ph - increased acidity).

 

[StoneCottageSoapworks]

1- If Lemon juice was added instead of water in the lye/water solution, it will neutralize some of the Naoh. This means that the water/lye concentration becomes less than that which is required to neutralize the oil (or oils) and turn it into soap. This MIGHT lower PH (increase acidity) in the end product.

2- If lemon juice was added after the soap has fully neutralized, and there is no more free Naoh, the Lemon juice will break down the soap bond. This will result in having Free Acid again (from acid that was broken from soap) and Free Naoh that became free because it has lost its bond with the Acid that came from the oil (or oils).

So on the other hand, adding Lemon Juice might not affect PH because both became free (free acid) and Base (free Naoh) and both remained in the mixture or the body of soap.

Hani, 1 - YES, you are correct and that is what I have been saying. I will add to that by saying the amount that the pH might lower, could be very small but it still lowers the pH! If you were to make a batch of soap with slightly less NaOH in the formula, the soap created will have a lower pH (may be very small but it IS lower!) If you kept making more and more batches with the same amount of ingredients EXCEPT the water which you increase each time, you then make a soap with a lower pH until you reach the point that the pH is too low and the NaOH is being diluted by too much water and it will not turn into soap at all!
2. - YES, you are correct again! However, Lemon Juice would react with the NaOH and neutralize some of it by lowering it's pH so some it is no longer part of the functional NaOH! The rest still is and still is "connected" to the fatty acids and it "doing its job"!

 

[HaniS]

Hani, 1 - YES, you are correct and that is what I have been saying. I will add to that by saying the amount that the pH might lower, could be very small but it still lowers the pH! If you were to make a batch of soap with slightly less NaOH in the formula, the soap created will have a lower pH (may be very small but it IS lower!) If you kept making more and more batches with the same amount of ingredients EXCEPT the water which you increase each time you make a soap with a lower pH until you reach the point that the pH is too low but the NaOH being diluted by too much water and it will not turn into soap at all!
2. - YES, you are correct again! However, Lemon Juice would react with the NaOH and neutralize some of it by lowering it's pH so some it is no longer part of the functional NaOH! The rest still is and still is "connected" to the fatty acids and it "doing its job"!

Yes, very much true.. sometimes I look again at what I've written and correct as necessary. I looked again at what I wrote, and I've found that I wrote "some" in point one. My aim of this is that the posts can serve as a source of information to someone so they ought to be a bit accurate. Please do correct me if you find anything else that needs correction. Sometimes we forget about an aspect or more..

 

[StoneCottageSoapworks]

Yes, very much true.. sometimes I look again at what I've written and correct as necessary. I looked again at what I wrote, and I've found that I wrote "some" in point one. My aim of this is that the posts can serve as a source of information to someone so they ought to be a bit accurate. Please do correct me if you find anything else that needs correction. Sometimes we forget about an aspect or more..

Hani, I think I was editing my reply to you when you wrote another reply quoting me! I had edited my reply to you and put in a comma in this phrase: "EXCEPT the water which you increase each time, you then make a soap" etc. because in reading it back to myself it seemed to make sense then when I reread it again, I realized that I needed to "divide" those two parts of the sentence! Sorry for the confusion! (and I just edited this reply because I didn't spell "sense" correctly! LOL!)

 

[HaniS]

No problem (reply to StoneCottageSoapworks) Actually I was reading that part again yesterday in your reply about increasing water each time. I'd like to discuss, talk about that with you, or understand more about what you mean. When I relate it to my understanding, it's that the Hydrogen and Oxygen in the Water + the Heat decomposes salts. And since that Naoh is a salt, and soap is a salt, they decompose with those factors. I've been making soap for many years now (since 1993!). What I do now mostly is making soap as an Art. I don't pay attention to the time spent or the cost, but I work on and like to see an exceptional result. Sometimes it takes one complete year to finish a batch (Alchemical work). Anyways before I write too much in here, in this thread (because it's a different subject), what I want to say is that I've created a new thread which is titled How to Make Pure Olive Oil Soap. I am writing about any of my finding there.. Please drop a note or reply in there if you like about that part about the water,, thank you very much.

 

[Bladesmith]

I've created a new thread which is titled How to Make Pure Olive Oil Soap. I am writing about any of my finding there

I was curious to read more about how you make soap but I have not been able to find this thread.

 

[DeeAnna]

There are a lot of questionable "science facts" being presented in this thread. While I don't expect to change the minds of the posters making these statements, I want to give fair warning to everyone else slogging through this thread --

Many of the statements being presented here contain very small kernels of truth wrapped up in a big dollop of pseudo science and just plain hooey. Caveat emptor.

 

[HaniS]

Hi DeeAnna, First of all (and last of all) All respect to you, to this forum and its members. I am not really encouraged or have any need or cause to go through personal conflicts, or "sharp" discussions of any kind. I wonder if you are an Admin in this forum so that you are legible to send "warnings"; I think you are. What I would say "gently" is that if you are finding anything in the posts that is untrue or unscientific, how come, or why don't you simply reply and write down the "true" or "scientific" reply instead of generalizing? Why don't you be more specific and address the matter within context..? Which part specifically that is hooey?

And what about "slogging" why not call it excitement, or joy to communicate, exchange information, learn and educate if possible?

 

[cmzaha]

Hi DeeAnna, First of all (and last of all) All respect to you, to this forum and its members. I am not really encouraged or have any need or cause to go through personal conflicts, or "sharp" discussions of any kind. I wonder if you are an Admin in this forum so that you are legible to send "warnings"; I think you are. What I would say "gently" is that if you are finding anything in the posts that is untrue or unscientific, how come, or why don't you simply reply and write down the "true" or "scientific" reply instead of generalizing? Why don't you be more specific and address the matter within context..? Which part specifically that is hooey?

And what about "slogging" why not call it excitement, or joy to communicate, exchange information, learn and educate if possible?

You want DeeAnna to back what she finds untrue or unscientific but you have not backed any of your statements. I guarantee DeeAnna has the research to back what she states. She also clarified some of your comments in Post #19 as to why some comments are incorrect.

We do not need Admin privileges to warn others there is bad information here or anywhere else to help newbies save wasting ingredients and time. The reason for this forum is to learn, hopefully, teach and answer questions new soapmakers have. Helping troubleshoot problems etc, but not teach incorrect ways to make soap. We also share our good and bad experiments. Soaping has a pretty large learning curve which we hope to alleviate.

If your method works for you and you feel it is great, go for it, but for the soapmaker of cp it is not great. I soap with vinegar and have also used lemon juice adding in the extra NaOH to create sodium acetate, resulting in a hard bar which lathers well.

Before I was in the forum I tried soaping with lemon juice as water replacement without adding in the extra lye, since I did not know better, and I remember I had a very mush bar of soap that never hardened. Is that enough proof for new soapers to know not to try it without adding in the extra lye? Also too much citric acid reacted to become sodium citrate will crystallize on the outside of the bar. Which is why I stopped using citric acid as a chelator. I have also salted out a few batches and was not the least impressed with the resulting soap, even trying to add back in the lost glycerin with refined glycerin.

 

[HaniS]

I was curious to read more about how you make soap but I have not been able to find this thread.

Thanks Bladesmith. I think that I can put "how I make soap" under 3 main categories.

The first one has to do with boiling. Soap factories mainly make soap by combining Full-boiling + Salting-out. Some of the advanced factories include Steam Pressure along with the other two main processes. What I do is similar to that (which is done in the factory), that consists of Strong Phase, Fitting, Salting-out and Graining.. except that instead of full-boiling during both Strong Phase and Salting-out, I do Semi-boiling, where the soap is either boiled one time only, or the fire is turned off just a little bit before boiling.

The other 2 operations or ways is the Steaming, hot-water bath, or both Steaming+ Hot water bath. This is similar to Pressure Steaming in the factory, but it's done simply by placing soap in a hot-water bath. This has many advantages such as neutralizing soap faster (rather than waiting long as in Aging or Curing soap). Hot-water bath also helps with "screening" soap, i.e getting rid of waste product, and finally hot-water bath helps in drying excessive water from soap.

You want DeeAnna to back what she finds untrue or unscientific but you have not backed any of your statements. I guarantee DeeAnna has the research to back what she states. She also clarified some of your comments in Post #19 as to why some comments are incorrect.

We do not need Admin privileges to warn others there is bad information here or anywhere else to help newbies save wasting ingredients and time. The reason for this forum is to learn, hopefully, teach and answer questions new soapmakers have. Helping troubleshoot problems etc, but not teach incorrect ways to make soap. We also share our good and bad experiments. Soaping has a pretty large learning curve which we hope to alleviate.

If your method works for you and you feel it is great, go for it, but for the soapmaker of cp it is not great. I soap with vinegar and have also used lemon juice adding in the extra NaOH to create sodium acetate, resulting in a hard bar which lathers well.

Before I was in the forum I tried soaping with lemon juice as water replacement without adding in the extra lye, since I did not know better, and I remember I had a very mush bar of soap that never hardened. Is that enough proof for new soapers to know not to try it without adding in the extra lye? Also too much citric acid reacted to become sodium citrate will crystallize on the outside of the bar. Which is why I stopped using citric acid as a chelator. I have also salted out a few batches and was not the least impressed with the resulting soap, even trying to add back in the lost glycerin with refined glycerin.

Thank you cmzaha for your reply. So what is the difference between what DeeAnna did for backing up her statements, and between what I did in "not backing up my statement"? For example do you agree that Lemon Juice breaks down the sodium stearate (and other sodium-acid) bond or not? Do you agree or find it unscientific that Citric Acid reacts with Naoh and slightly reduces the concentration of the water/lye solution?

Also I never mentioned or asked DeeAnna to back up anything. What I asked for is that to be more specific about any "mistake" rather than sending warnings.. cheers

quote from your reply:

"If your method works for you and you feel it is great, go for it, but for the soapmaker of cp it is not great..."

Now are you speaking on behalf All CP soap-makers!?

Finding contradictions in someone else's statement is not my idea of having fun really..

 

[DeeAnna]

...I wonder if you are an Admin in this forum so that you are legible to send "warnings"; I think you are....

Last time I looked, I didn't see "Moderator" or "Administrator" listed under my name.

While I am and always have been just a regular member, I will not remain silent when I see incorrect, unsafe, or misleading information being touted.

"...why don't you simply reply and write down the "true" or "scientific" reply instead of generalizing?..."

I have made three attempts in this thread to provide accurate scientific information -- see posts 14, 19, and 42. My replies have been largely ignored or blown off, so my only recourse is to caution others to read this thread with a very skeptical eye.

This is devolving into a useless wrangle. If I see the need to warn others again, I will. But otherwise, I'm outta here.

 

[HaniS]

I don't know DeeAnna.. Why do you say that your replies or posts were ignored? How do you know? Maybe I've read them and highly respected what you wrote. Maybe many others read your replies and got useful information from. Not commenting on your posts or replies does not mean they were ignored. And when I post a reply with your name not mentioned, it doesn't mean that I am addressing other members and so on.

Anyways, I still don't understand why you use words such as Caution! Warning!

I don't mean any offend by this. I just think that you are over reacting.

Making mistakes are normal, writing mistakes is also normal, and there's no big deal in this. This is a forum, and this is why it's here.

So what is it really that you are threatening "others" with if you are not an admin? just wondering..

 

[earlene]

Earlene, Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap meaning that less of the oils would saponify giving you what amounts to a larger superfat which would make the soap softer to cut and not have as good characteristics as your normal soap formula might have. Besides, the Lemon "scent" won't hold up at all because it is a top note and citrus essential oils are notorious for disappearing from the soap scent in a matter of days or weeks!

The first part of what you quoted that I said was about using lemon juice in soap as the liquid replacement for water. I made no mention of or attempt to impart any scent to the soap. That was not my purpose at all. I also happened to mention that I did make lye adjustments, so your reply indicates to me you did not read all of what I said in that post. And besides that, I do not believe the pH of soap is significantly lowered by any means such as this, and if it were it would no longer be soap.

The second part was about adding cut up soap to lemon juice to see how long it would take for the soap to deteriorate (or if it would, which of course it did.) I don't think you were responding to that part of my post, but you did include it in the quote, so I am not sure if you meant it in reply to that part or not.

ETA: Also I don't particularly care about the pH of soap. It is what it is and within the scientific definition of soap it will be within a specific range. When it leaves that range it is no longer soap. I want to make soap and am happy with it at the pH range within which it falls. I do not test for pH because what matters more is whether or not soap is lye heavy and pH is NOT a good indicator of that. Zap testing is a far better indicator.

 

[StoneCottageSoapworks]

The first part of what you quoted that I said was about using lemon juice in soap as the liquid replacement for water. I made no mention of or attempt to impart any scent to the soap. That was not my purpose at all. I also happened to mention that I did make lye adjustments, so your reply indicates to me you did not read all of what I said in that post. And besides that, I do not believe the pH of soap is significantly lowered by any means such as this, and if it were it would no longer be soap.

The second part was about adding cut up soap to lemon juice to see how long it would take for the soap to deteriorate (or if it would, which of course it did.) I don't think you were responding to that part of my post, but you did include it in the quote, so I am not sure if you meant it in reply to that part or not.

ETA: Also I don't particularly care about the pH of soap. It is what it is and within the scientific definition of soap it will be within a specific range. When it leaves that range it is no longer soap. I want to make soap and am happy with it at the pH range within which it falls. I do not test for pH because what matters more is whether or not soap is lye heavy and pH is NOT a good indicator of that. Zap testing is a far better indicator.

Earlene,

Yes, you are correct that adjustments need to be made to a formula when you add an acid that will affect the base used in the product, but you said very little about how you made the calculations to correct the addition of an acid to the base included in your formula. In the 2nd. portion of my response, I was responding to the scent aspect mentioned below by the original poster, Jerry who created this thread to find out the information about using lemon in his soapmaking process. My reply, as others who have replied to this thread, is to everyone who has posted or who is reading this thread.

Has anyone used fresh lemon or lime juice in his or her soaps? I do CP and I have a ton of fresh limes and lemons from my trees and thought about trying it but I don’t know how much to put in and whether I should discount the water with the amount of juice. Maybe the lye water would eliminate the scent of the juice.Maybe the citric acid would compromise the quality of the soap in some way. I've searched around some of the Forums and haven't seen where anyone has tried this.
Jerry

Sorry I didn't delete the second section of your post. You are entitled to express your opinion about the pH of soap as you did in the 3rd. section. I don't happen to feel the same way about this issue. I am very careful in determining pH in soap, shaving soap, shaving cream or any other types of products I formulate and manufacture. I have been taught by several friends of mine who are cosmetic chemists how important it is to test the pH of a product if there is any concern about it having a higher pH than is appropriate for that product. I was instructed that I should use a pH meter (and I do feel much more comfortable using my pH meter!) to do the appropriate testing as it is the only proper way to perform this task! I am saying this to all those out there who may read it as I think it is important and correct information for them to have so that they can do the right thing when they are creating their products! This goes for amateurs and professionals alike!

 

[DeeAnna]

Most people expect way too much out of a pH test, especially when it comes to soap. Most soap makers want the pH test to tell them whether their soap contains excess alkali when they pH test their soap.

Problem is, the pH test is not sufficiently precise enough to give you a useful answer. Only a few parts per thousand of excess alkali means the difference between skin safe or not, and a simple pH check cannot come close to telling you this.

The other aspect is that the pH of a fully neutralized soap will vary with the fatty acids present in the soap. One soap that tests at a pH of 10.0 might be skin safe and another soap testing at a pH of 9.5 might contain excess alkali.

For both of these reasons, it is unwise to depend on pH for confirmation that the soap is skin safe (no excess alkali). A titration test for free alkali is the gold standard procedure that answers this question accurately. The quick qualitative check of excess alkali is the zap test.

 

[cmzaha]

I remember reading a chart on the mildest rated soap for babies several years ago and one of the highest ph soaps was rated the mildest. Someone here might remember the article, I just do not.