Understanding Super Fat

[UnScented Arizona]

My current understanding of SF is:
1) Super means Extra
2) SF means fat that has not been saponified.
3) 5% SF has more free un-saponified fat/oils than 3%

So, why does my 30% coconut bar feel as dry as my 3% recipe on my hands?

Do I have this correct??

 

[Jorah]

I suspect that it's because coconut oil is considered a very drying oil... but as you know, I've only been at this for a few months, so I'll be watching for replies from folks with more experience!

 

[UnScented Arizona]

I suspect that it's because coconut oil is considered a very drying oil... but as you know, I've only been at this for a few months, so I'll be watching for replies from folks with more experience!

Me 2. Wake up people! We need answers!! lol.

Should have researched more. Reading this: Superfat

 

[Lion Of Judah]

Jorah basically said it , and with that one fact you have to up your superfat to compensate / balance it out . Also you have to be aware of your skin type , some can take 30+% coconut oil in their recipe with say 5% SF or less with no problem [of dryness to the skin] while others will have to bump up their SF to come away feeling good [no dryness to the skin ]
DeAnna link that you found will give you more in-depth info
on the full scope of it all.

 

[TheGecko]

Me 2. Wake up people! We need answers!! lol.

5am Texas time? I'm on the West Coast and stilled cuddled with my kitties.

My current understanding of SF is:
1) Super means Extra
2) SF means fat that has not been saponified.
3) 5% SF has more free un-saponified fat/oils than 3%

1) No, you're not adding anything extra to the recipe
2) Yes
3) Yes

So, why does my 30% coconut bar feel as dry as my 3% recipe on my hands?

Because some folks are more sensitive to Coconut Oil in soap than others. And note I said "in soap" and that is because Coconut Oil used in lotions and massage oils and scrubs and what not can be great for the skin, but in soap, because of the saponification process it is no longer 'coconut oil' but is now a composition of mainly Lauric Fatty Acids along some Myristic and some other minor ones. I am not well-versed in Fatty Acids but combined with Sodium Hydroxide it turns into Sodium Laurate and Sodium Laurate is good for cleaning.

As much as I pretend that soap making is magic (the curing process is), it's science.

 

[Relle]

Me 2. Wake up people! We need answers!! lol.

Please be patient with feedback, everyone in the world is not on the same time frame as you, sometimes it takes days to get answers. You don't get instantanious answers just because you want them. Smf is an international forum, not just the US.

 

[AliensrReal]

There are many things that can make a bar feel drying. One is the formula and having a high cleansing number. I base my super fat on my cleansing number. The higher the cleansing number the higher the super fat I will have in my soap. Your skin may not tolerate certain oils as well. Many people can’t tolerate coconut oil in soap. I can only tolerate it up to 25%.

 

[UnScented Arizona]

Please be patient with feedback, everyone in the world is not on the same time frame as you, sometimes it takes days to get answers. You don't get instantanious answers just because you want them. Smf is an international forum, not just the US.

i Know. lol means, I'm joking. I also get up crazy early, I'm aware that most aren't up yet and have lives beyond this forum.

There are many things that can make a bar feel drying. One is the formula and having a high cleansing number. I base my super fat on my cleansing number. The higher the cleansing number the higher the super fat I will have in my soap. Your skin may not tolerate certain oils as well. Many people can’t tolerate coconut oil in soap. I can only tolerate it up to 25%.

So, with this recipe, I would reduce the CO and increase which other oils, in your opinion? Thanx in advance!
All percentages....
55 lard
20 coconut
10 olive oil
10 HO Sunflower oil
5 castor oil

5am Texas time? I'm on the West Coast and stilled cuddled with my kitties.


1) No, you're not adding anything extra to the recipe
2) Yes
3) Yes


Because some folks are more sensitive to Coconut Oil in soap than others. And note I said "in soap" and that is because Coconut Oil used in lotions and massage oils and scrubs and what not can be great for the skin, but in soap, because of the saponification process it is no longer 'coconut oil' but is now a composition of mainly Lauric Fatty Acids along some Myristic and some other minor ones. I am not well-versed in Fatty Acids but combined with Sodium Hydroxide it turns into Sodium Laurate and Sodium Laurate is good for cleaning.

As much as I pretend that soap making is magic (the curing process is), it's science.

I mean that the word 'super' is defined as 'extra'. I understand that I'm not adding anything extra. Thanx for the reply. good info.

 

[AliensrReal]

So, with this recipe, I would reduce the CO and increase which other oils, in your opinion? Thanx in advance!
All percentages....
55 lard
20 coconut
10 olive oil
10 HO Sunflower oil
5 castor oil

Try 55% lard
15% coconut oil
15% olive oil
10% HO sunflower oil
5% castor oil

Try a super fat of 5% super fat and go up or down from there.

 

[Jorah]

I suspect that it's because coconut oil is considered a very drying oil... but as you know, I've only been at this for a few months, so I'll be watching for replies from folks with more experience!

One of the common questions that I've seen about superfat is; "can you control which fat is left un-saponified?" People try adding the 'lux' oil at the last second in the hope that it will survive the transformation into soap. For instance, if someone wants to have shea butter as the conditioning oil, they might try blending the lye water and other oils first, and just as the mix is reaching trace, add the shea butter. I've seen more-experienced soapers (or chandler, though that term is usually reserved for candle-makers now, according to wikipedia) claim that this is not a realistic practice, as the conversion process continues for many hours as the soap sets up, so there's no practical way to 'select' which oil will be left un-saponified/superfatted.

 

[UnScented Arizona]

Try 55% lard
15% coconut oil
15% olive oil
10% HO sunflower oil
5% castor oil

Try a super fat of 5% super fat and go up or down from there.

Great. thanx. I will try this.

 

[Shelley D]

I am one of the super sensitive to coconut oil people ~ I can't tolerate more than 20% in a recipe and recently learned my 5% SF may not agree with the super hard water of my area also (sunny Florida), the higher SF + hard water = more soap residue. So now I'm lowering my SF% and most likely my CO% as well ~ or I may just continue to experiment with my triple butter recipes and leave the CO at 20% to help balance the recipe That's what makes this a fun and addictive hobby!

There are many things that can make a bar feel drying. One is the formula and having a high cleansing number. I base my super fat on my cleansing number. The higher the cleansing number the higher the super fat I will have in my soap. Your skin may not tolerate certain oils as well. Many people can’t tolerate coconut oil in soap. I can only tolerate it up to 25%.

Agreed ~ my formulas usually have a lower cleansing number with higher conditioning numbers

Also ~ have you mastered making single soaps as testers? That way you can knock of a bunch of testers, each one with a slight variation ~ just take notes!

 

[Nona'sFarm]

I am one of the super sensitive to coconut oil people ~ I can't tolerate more than 20% in a recipe and recently learned my 5% SF may not agree with the super hard water of my area also (sunny Florida), the higher SF + hard water = more soap residue.

Apologize for going off main topic up front - have you tried adding citric acid to combat soap scum. If you do, need to adjust the lye.
https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.asp

 

[AliensrReal]

Great. thanx. I will try this.

If you find it’s still drying then you may need to eliminate the coconut oil. Some people find palm kernel flakes a little more tolerable. Some people find olive oil to be drying. You could try almond oil instead of olive oil.

 

[Shelley D]

Apologize for going off main topic up front - have you tried adding citric acid to combat soap scum. If you do, need to adjust the lye.

This link talks about using a chelator to combat rancidity and soap scum.

https://classicbells.com/soap/chelatorLimits.asp

Not yet ~ I've made note of all the forum suggestions, but I am slow to try the additives as my skin reacts to the strangest things and sometimes I just don't know what that might be. I gave up commercial soaps years ago to avoid additives, so my recipes are butters, oils, milks, occasionally distilled water or salt water, and lye, the occasional EO, some clays, I experimented with charcoal once (didn't like working with it), but otherwise no other additives yet. I have heard all the opinions that these chelators are considered safe, but I just don't know for sure what I will react to. But I may have to experiment soon because the hard water still makes me itchy and hands have the worst reactions ~ I guess because I wash my hands most often I just can't decide which one to try first

 

[TheGecko]

I mean that the word 'super' is defined as 'extra'. I understand that I'm not adding anything extra. Thanx for the reply. good info.

I can see how some folks would define it as 'extra' because of how SuperFat works with the "Hot Process" process of making soap in which the SuperFat is 'added' to the batter after saponification has occurred so it would seem like you are adding 'extra' oil. But the reality is...you're just making Fudge.

My Fudge recipe is Chocolate Chips (Oil/Butter), Sweetened Condensed Milk (Lye Solution), Salt (Sodium Lactate) and Vanilla (SuperFat). You start by combining the Chocolate Chips, Sweetened Condensed Milk and Salt into a pan and heat it up and stir until the chips are melted. I then take the pan off the stove and stir in Vanilla and then pour into a pan and chill. SuperFat is Vanilla. It's already a part of the recipe, you're just putting it in at the end.

In Cold Process, SuperFat is more like making Brownies; you can't put the Vanilla in after the Brownies have baked. So what you are doing is using LESS Sodium Hydroxide than you need to make sure you have fats that have not saponified. As an example...for 16oz of my recipe oils, I would need 2.33oz of NaOH to turn all of them into soap. Put if I want to leave 5% of the oils unsaponified, I would only use 2.21oz. 2.33 x 5% = 0.12. 2.33 - 0.12 = 2.21

 

[Shelley D]

I can see how some folks would define it as 'extra' because of how SuperFat works with the "Hot Process" process of making soap in which the SuperFat is 'added' to the batter after saponification has occurred so it would seem like you are adding 'extra' oil. But the reality is...you're just making Fudge.

My Fudge recipe is Chocolate Chips (Oil/Butter), Sweetened Condensed Milk (Lye Solution), Salt (Sodium Lactate) and Vanilla (SuperFat). You start by combining the Chocolate Chips, Sweetened Condensed Milk and Salt into a pan and heat it up and stir until the chips are melted. I then take the pan off the stove and stir in Vanilla and then pour into a pan and chill. SuperFat is Vanilla. It's already a part of the recipe, you're just putting it in at the end.

In Cold Process, SuperFat is more like making Brownies; you can't put the Vanilla in after the Brownies have baked. So what you are doing is using LESS Sodium Hydroxide than you need to make sure you have fats that have not saponified. As an example...for 16oz of my recipe oils, I would need 2.33oz of NaOH to turn all of them into soap. Put if I want to leave 5% of the oils unsaponified, I would only use 2.21oz. 2.33 x 5% = 0.12. 2.33 - 0.12 = 2.21

Mmm ~ fudge and brownies

 

[UnScented Arizona]

Apologize for going off main topic up front - have you tried adding citric acid to combat soap scum. If you do, need to adjust the lye.
https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.asp

I have not tried that. Thanx, I'll check it out.

 

[AliOop]

I have heard all the opinions that these chelators are considered safe, but I just don't know for sure what I will react to. But I may have to experiment soon because the hard water still makes me itchy and hands have the worst reactions ~ I guess because I wash my hands most often I just can't decide which one to try first

When we lived in a hard water area, adding a chelator was an absolute game-changer to get rid of soap scum, and eliminate that sticky, itchy feeling on my hands. Even though we have a whole-house filter now, I still use a chelator because I never know if my users will have hard water. I don't want them to hate hand-crafted soap just because of their water!

Fortunately, my super sensitive skin does not react to either citric acid or sodium citrate. Although I already have citric acid around for bath bombs, I went ahead and bought sodium citrate, because no lye adjustment is needed and it's relatively inexpensive given how little I use (1% for most soaps, and 2% for high-lard or high-tallow recipes, which tend to create more scum).

My understanding is that most citric acid these days is often fermented on a corn substrate. Sodium citrate is made from that citric acid, too. Supposedly there is no corn left in the CA, just as there is allegedly no corn or beets left in the sugar manufactured from those. But if you are sensitive to corn, I'd purchase only a small amount of either to try as your chelator.

EDIT: are you already using sodium lactate or white sugar in your soap without any problem? If so, given that those are both created from corn or beets, you might be ok with citric acid or sodium citrate, too.

 

[Shelley D]

When we lived in a hard water area, adding a chelator was an absolute game-changer to get rid of soap scum, and eliminate that sticky, itchy feeling on my hands. Even though we have a whole-house filter now, I still use a chelator because I never know if my users will have hard water. I don't want them to hate hand-crafted soap just because of their water!

Fortunately, my super sensitive skin does not react to either citric acid or sodium citrate. Although I already have citric acid around for bath bombs, I went ahead and bought sodium citrate, because no lye adjustment is needed and it's relatively inexpensive given how little I use (1% for most soaps, and 2% for high-lard or high-tallow recipes, which tend to create more scum).

My understanding is that most citric acid these days is often fermented on a corn substrate. Sodium citrate is made from that citric acid, too. Supposedly there is no corn left in the CA, just as there is allegedly no corn or beets left in the sugar manufactured from those. But if you are sensitive to corn, I'd purchase only a small amount of either to try as your chelator.

EDIT: are you already using sodium lactate or white sugar in your soap without any problem? If so, given that those are both created from corn or beets, you might be ok with citric acid or sodium citrate, too.

I haven't added any sugars yet ~ so I may just start with sodium citrate because, as you said, no lye adjustment is needed and I do hate the maths