Trace - time, temperature and other factors

[CamillaHB]

Dear all
I have been browsing this forum and other internet resources and I have a couple of questions regarding trace.
My first experiment was with avocado oil and melted butter (without the precipitate). Maybe an unconventional combination, but those were the ingredients I had at hand, and I could just throw out the soap if it failed, which I did because it smelled nauseating (the avocado oil had expired, so I probably asked for it).
Using a stick blender the trace came fast and it ended up looking like soap.

My second experiment was a simple 100% EV olive oil soap. As expected it took longer to reach trace but not forever.

Then I borrowed a book and it mentioned tracing times for more than an hour - WITH a stick blender!

So now I am a bit confused about trace in general.

Do you stir beyond the point where is has thickened (like curd or cake batter)? If so, why?
It is my impression that the soap is poured while the trace is thin when you want to do marbling. As you end up with soap in this case too, why not stop at thin trace in all cases and let time (and temperature) do the rest of the work?

I am sorry if this question has been answered a hundred times, but I couldn't manage to find the answer.

 

[fiddletree]

I'm tired so I might not make sense, so sorry for that!

Different things cause trace faster. olive oil traces slowly, shea butter traces super fast, for example. Some EOs or FOs can accelerate trace, as well. Your soaping temperature can also influence it.

Different techniques call for different thickness of the soap batter. Personal preference also. For swirling it needs to be thinner, for textured tops it should be thicker. I usually like mine on the thick end of medium trace, but I also use a lot of shea so it is hard for me to have light trace if I want to add colorants and scent. If I'm swirling, I stop before it gets too thick. I think that thicker soap batter gels faster, too, so if you want to gel or not also comes into consideration.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[judymoody]

In answer to your first question, butter has butyric acid which will smell nasty in finished soap.

As for trace, it depends on a lot. Did you use a water discount in your 100% OO soap? Fragrance? What temperature did you soap at?

 

[IrishLass]

Hello and welcome!

Dear all
I have been browsing this forum and other internet resources and I have a couple of questions regarding trace.
My first experiment was with avocado oil and melted butter (without the precipitate). Maybe an unconventional combination, but those were the ingredients I had at hand, and I could just throw out the soap if it failed, which I did because it smelled nauseating (the avocado oil had expired, so I probably asked for it).

That's pretty much par for the course with either butter or ghee in soap from all the testimonials I've read from my fellow soapmakers who have tried soaping with them. Vomit scented soap isn't my cup of tea, so I've pretty much avoided using them myself. :wink:

Using a stick blender the trace came fast and it ended up looking like soap.

My second experiment was a simple 100% EV olive oil soap. As expected it took longer to reach trace but not forever.

Then I borrowed a book and it mentioned tracing times for more than an hour - WITH a stick blender!

So now I am a bit confused about trace in general.

Besides using a stickblender, the water amount in the recipe (aka the strength of the lye solution) is a huge factor in how long or how short of a time one's soap reaches trace. My first 100% olive oil soap took quite a long time to trace even with a stickblender because I used what is known as a 'full water' amount with it. But when I make the same recipe using much less water, it comes to trace within 10 minutes tops.

Do you stir beyond the point where is has thickened (like curd or cake batter)? If so, why? It is my impression that the soap is poured while the trace is thin when you want to do marbling

I like to pour my soaps at medium-thick trace. It works better with my molds, and believe it or not I'm still able to marble and swirl beautifully just fine.


IrishLass

 

[soapbuddy]

I do more of an emulsion; which is before trace. I know that if the raw soap stays lightly suspended on the side of the soap pot I'm good to go.

I only tried melted butter once. Now I know that due to butyric acid in the butter, the soap will always smell bad with it.

 

[panzerakc]

Another reason to pour at a thicker trace is because of the certain additives. If I'm adding powdered oatmeal, I want the oatmeal evenly suspended throughout the soap. If I added it at a thinner trace, it would just sink.

That's not to say someone might not want added oatmeal all on one side of the bar. I just prefer mine throughout.

Anita

 

[Soapy Gurl]

Soapbuddy, you pour at the emulsion phase? I have always wondered about this. Do you CPOP? Tell me a little more about your process please.

 

[CamillaHB]

Thanks a lot guys, it is all very helpful!

So thick or thin trace is a matter of preference and/or technique. It all makes a successful bar of soap in the end - even pouring at the emulsion phase.

I used the figures straight from the lye calculator: 500g OO, 190g water and 64g NaOH and I soaped at 40 degrees Celsius.
Since I was eager to see the result, I put the soap in the oven at about 60 degrees Celsius for about 2.5 hours.

The soap was solid once it had cooled down, and I cut it the next morning. It didn't zap and didn't seem harsh on the hands either.
This CPOP seems to work great and I am wondering why people are not doing this all the time - especially considering all the frustrations regarding partial gels. To me CPOP seems like a miracle cure, but maybe this is just beginner's luck.

 

[Fragola]

This CPOP seems to work great and I am wondering why people are not doing this all the time - especially considering all the frustrations regarding partial gels.

One reason I avoid this, is the wasted fragrance lost due to evaporation.

With individual molds, I never got gel. I had to learn what gel is from other people's stories.

 

[carebear]

I don't CPOP because I typically don't need to, and because there is a risk of overheating - which can be ugly. In the cooler months I do preheat my mold, though, in a warm oven.

I haven't noted any fragrance loss from CPOP vs CP. Or between gel vs non-gel.

 

[soapbuddy]

Soapbuddy, you pour at the emulsion phase? I have always wondered about this. Do you CPOP? Tell me a little more about your process please.

Yes I pour at the emulsion stage. I also don't gel.

 

[Alaska beauty]

In some good soap books you can fined a list of different oil and them speed of reaction, cleaning number, softening and bubbling property.
Personally for me good quality Avocado oil or butter some times simply impossible to saponifiy. It's always will be your over fat.

 

[Soapy Gurl]

Camilla - for me, I felt exactly the same about CPOP. I had been making soap for awhile and a friend I met on-line, who has much more experience, told me about it. The first time I tried it I was in LOVE! For my recipes it works perfectly, I also reduce my water to 25%. I have a faster cure time and less shrinkage. We all find our methods and CPOP is mine too!

 

[dagmar88]

In some good soap books you can fined a list of different oil and them speed of reaction, cleaning number, softening and bubbling property.
Personally for me good quality Avocado oil or butter some times simply impossible to saponifiy. It's always will be your over fat.

How would you notice something like that?

 

[Dragonkaz]

In winter I put my soap in the oven at about 40 C for two hours. I also use a water discount. Even so, I'd never use this soap or sell it, until it's had time to cure.

I've not noticed any difference in the fragrance between CP and CPOP.

 

[mavalia]

How long would it take to get a pudding-like trace though? Today I tried making some soap, I used an electric hand mixer to mix the base oils with the lye and water mixture for 20 minutes, added in a soft oil and mixed for another 10 minutes but it never got to that stage. There is a very light trace though although I don't know if it's more accurate to call it an emulsion? I really want to make patterns on the top of the soap!

 

[Fragola]

A mixer works much slower than a blender.

Trace time depends on the recipe, oils used and blender speed. It can take under a minute or hours ...

On the other hand, you soap will harden eventually. I haven't tried this, but wouldn't it possible to pour it in the mold and make patterns when it has gotten a little thicker. Which could be after 10 minutes or 40, don't know ? Personally, I never make patterns, do I am not exactly sure how this works.

 

[cheesenoodle]

Soapbuddy, you pour at the emulsion phase? I have always wondered about this. Do you CPOP? Tell me a little more about your process please.

Yes I pour at the emulsion stage. I also don't gel.

The crockpot tutorials I see say to mix until trace, and then turn the heat off and wait until it gels. I thought the gelling part was necessary and is a sign of saponificaiton completing. How can you get away without gelling?

 

[mavalia]

A mixer works much slower than a blender.

Trace time depends on the recipe, oils used and blender speed. It can take under a minute or hours ...

On the other hand, you soap will harden eventually. I haven't tried this, but wouldn't it possible to pour it in the mold and make patterns when it has gotten a little thicker. Which could be after 10 minutes or 40, don't know ? Personally, I never make patterns, do I am not exactly sure how this works.

I'll try to do that this weekend. So I guess I should pour in the soap at light trace and sort of let it set and thicken by itself in the mould before I top it up with some more soap to make patterns.