Too Cavalier!!

[GlenS]

Hello to all the members,
Having decided that my favorite soap was too expensive, I decided to try to duplicate it. The internet to me seems full of contradictory information at least at the cursory first couple days. This didn't stop my enthusiasm.
Creating my own recipes which I thought fit the general consensus for a lard/lye hot process soap, I made a small batch. Then I realized how much I didn't know. That batch is drying but smells a bit chemically and since I don't think my tongue is acute enough for the zap test, it may be lye heavy. Using fish ph indicator on the bars shows in excess of 8.6, it doesn't go higher. I think it should be safe for use and from my limited research may actually get better with curing.
My enthusiasm grabbed me with a batch of my concoction of goatmilk bastille soap. I think I don't understand the hot process cooking stages and it may be no better than the first batch except it smell better already. I cut it tonight.
Quicky 9 oz water, 6 oz evaporated goatmilk, 5.4 oz sodium hydroxide to 32 oz olive oil and 8 oz coconut oil.
Added the lye and water cooled to the cooled goatmilk, stirred to trace and put in crockpot on low. The stages decribed by the information I had gleened did not match reality. So I just kept stirring it every few minutes until it got kind of more mashed potatoey.
It appears as if I must add the smell.
Thanks for any insight or help!
Cheers
GlenS

 

[lenarenee]

Hi Glenn, welcome to soaping and glad you didn't give up!

Here's a few basics:

Every recipe, whether you design it, or it comes from a website/book, must be entered into a soap calculator such as soapcalc.net.

The pH of the soap does NOT indicate safety or lye heaviness. You don't ever have to pH test your soap. (yes, there's a lot of incorrect info sold as gospel on the internet)

(I can guarantee you that the pH strip was not accurate. They aren't all that accurate for aquariums either -I have 4! but definitely not for testing soap. Very few experienced soapers here on the forum test the pH)


Hot Process - you may not see all the stages that people talk about - and that's okay. Even if you weren't to fully cook your soap, as long as oils and lye solution stay emulsified - soap will happen.

I won't comment on your recipes because I don't have the full recipe for your first batch, and I didn't run your 2nd one through the soap calculater. It's past my bedtime)

Here are some videos that might help you. I hope someone with more information and videos will come along soon.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...601EFA419C736E7C3A67601EFA419C736&FORM=VDQVAP

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...5BE9BAF2E925EA32830B5BE9BAF2E925E&FORM=VDQVAP

This one actually shows a guy making soap (But do NOT use GLASS for holding lye water or soap batter because lye can etch it and eventually cause it to break.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...601EFA419C736E7C3A67601EFA419C736&FORM=VDQVAP

 

[Dawni]

lenarenee is right. For my first HP batch I made the mistake of waiting for each stage and ended up over cooking the soap. It was a mess.

Now, when I see my soap batter maybe around 80% translucent I turn my slow cooker off and start adding my additives, if I have any and give everything a good stir.

I also reserve part of the recipe water, and add it in hot at this point to help with fluidity. If you're not vegan, room temp yogurt instead of, or in addition to the water works great.

Another thing I noticed is people cooking for an hour or more but I've found that a lot of times 15-30mins is enough, depending of course on your recipe.

What lye ratio were you using? Most people use 2:1 but you'll notice over time which recipes need more and which need less. HP generally uses more than CP to allot for water loss during the cook but I've been experimenting with this and have sometimes been successful with less water even in HP.

I asked because when I plugged your recipe in the calc, my usual 2:1 only calls for 11oz liquid and you used 15oz so I checked and I think you used 38% liquid as percent of oils. For a bastille for example, with a big amount of olive oil we'd use less water. I had recently made HP Castile (100% pomace) using only 1.7:1 and 1.5:1 for the CP counterpart.

If you want to learn the difference, and why people prefer the lye ratio option, have a read here. In fact, there's a ton of really good, correct info in that site alone and it helped me a lot.

Otherwise your recipe seems fine. I've not used goat milk but if you use those keywords you'll get a lot of threads in the forum alone with lots of advice how to use it. Some freeze it and add lye directly to it, some add it to the oils and then the lye water is added, and some use powdered.

Not sure what else to say lol but if you have any questions regarding HP I'll try n help as best as I can with my little experience

 

[GlenS]

Hello lenarenee,
First off thanks for taking time to reply and assist. The first batch was 480g Crisco, 121g Coconut Oil, 85g Lye and 228g water. Both of the recipes were run through the calculator "not fully understanding it yet" and extrapolated to approximate the proportions. The first batch is today smooth, little lather but leaves your hands feeling clean, slightly slick. The smell and consistency could improve. Batch two did not set up solid in 24 hours (Still soft in the middle), so I'm giving it another day before cutting. Smell ...better.
Really thank you for the info on the ph. I will explore the links as you suggested for better information. Ultimately I am trying to recreate a soap the will be like the Crabtree and Evelyn Goatmilk and Buttermilk soaps. I like the goatmilk which is good for sensitive skin!

lenarenee is right. For my first HP batch I made the mistake of waiting for each stage and ended up over cooking the soap. It was a mess.

Now, when I see my soap batter maybe around 80% translucent I turn my slow cooker off and start adding my additives, if I have any and give everything a good stir.

I also reserve part of the recipe water, and add it in hot at this point to help with fluidity. If you're not vegan, room temp yogurt instead of, or in addition to the water works great.

Another thing I noticed is people cooking for an hour or more but I've found that a lot of times 15-30mins is enough, depending of course on your recipe.

What lye ratio were you using? Most people use 2:1 but you'll notice over time which recipes need more and which need less. HP generally uses more than CP to allot for water loss during the cook but I've been experimenting with this and have sometimes been successful with less water even in HP.

I asked because when I plugged your recipe in the calc, my usual 2:1 only calls for 11oz liquid and you used 15oz so I checked and I think you used 38% liquid as percent of oils. For a bastille for example, with a big amount of olive oil we'd use less water. I had recently made HP Castile (100% pomace) using only 1.7:1 and 1.5:1 for the CP counterpart.

If you want to learn the difference, and why people prefer the lye ratio option, have a read here. In fact, there's a ton of really good, correct info in that site alone and it helped me a lot.

Otherwise your recipe seems fine. I've not used goat milk but if you use those keywords you'll get a lot of threads in the forum alone with lots of advice how to use it. Some freeze it and add lye directly to it, some add it to the oils and then the lye water is added, and some use powdered.

Not sure what else to say lol but if you have any questions regarding HP I'll try n help as best as I can with my little experience

Hello Dawni,
I appreciate your time and response. As the title suggests I was a bit brave/foolish on the first attempts. Get feet wet and darn the torpedoes. I mixed on the 2nd recipe the reduced water and added evaporated goatmilk to equal the quantity suggested by the calculator for the correct lye amount (approximately). The oils I combined for an approximate total of the oils. Things went south when I looked at it after only ten minutes and what looked normal was surrounded by oil. Mixed it and waited another ten minutes. Again the same thing. Became nervous of overcooking. Anyway with your and the forums membership, plus resources I think I need to reflect and investigate.
BTW you soap looks great. Either I didn't wait or I didn't get your half cooked stage.
Thanks and Cheers

 

[Dawni]

Hello Dawni,
I appreciate your time and response. As the title suggests I was a bit brave/foolish on the first attempts. Get feet wet and darn the torpedoes. I mixed on the 2nd recipe the reduced water and added evaporated goatmilk to equal the quantity suggested by the calculator for the correct lye amount (approximately). The oils I combined for an approximate total of the oils. Things went south when I looked at it after only ten minutes and what looked normal was surrounded by oil. Mixed it and waited another ten minutes. Again the same thing. Became nervous of overcooking. Anyway with your and the forums membership, plus resources I think I need to reflect and investigate.
BTW you soap looks great. Either I didn't wait or I didn't get your half cooked stage.
Thanks and Cheers

You're welcome! I received a lot of help when I was new here so it's only right I pay it forward

Some recipes skip all stages. I don't always get that half cooked one which is why I took a pic lol most times it still looks like thick trace but when I stir, underneath is all gelled and the mixing should finish it. I turn my slow cooker off then. Sometimes yes, the stuff does separate, which again, a lot of stirring should solve eventually.

As long as the batter is more translucent than creamy, even you mold it at this point saponification will continue with the heat. So you can add your superfat and other stuff even at that point.

I rarely scent my soaps btw, can't afford to hehe but unless I've burned something they all just smell like soap, even the high lard ones.

Oh, maybe you also wanna try smaller batches, just in case you don't like the results. You can experiment more and not have a ton of soap you don't like.

As long as all the amounts have been run through the calc (don't approximate!), and you didn't weigh anything wrong, you will get zap free soap that lathers

So.. Are you gonna show us some soap?

 

[dixiedragon]

Yup! Picture tax!

Soaping 101 has a good hot process video that might help you to watch. I don't think you made a mistake doing too much too fast - sounds like you may have had bad or incomplete information.

Can you describe more what you mean by a "chemical" smell? Did you add any fragrance? Some people say their lard soap smells a bit "porky" - like a pork roast. You might want to smell some Ivory next time you're at the grocery store - it doesn't have fragrance added so you can smell what plain soap smells like.

 

[GlenS]

You're welcome! I received a lot of help when I was new here so it's only right I pay it forward

Some recipes skip all stages. I don't always get that half cooked one which is why I took a pic lol most times it still looks like thick trace but when I stir, underneath is all gelled and the mixing should finish it. I turn my slow cooker off then. Sometimes yes, the stuff does separate, which again, a lot of stirring should solve eventually.

As long as the batter is more translucent than creamy, even you mold it at this point saponification will continue with the heat. So you can add your superfat and other stuff even at that point.

I rarely scent my soaps btw, can't afford to hehe but unless I've burned something they all just smell like soap, even the high lard ones.

Oh, maybe you also wanna try smaller batches, just in case you don't like the results. You can experiment more and not have a ton of soap you don't like.

As long as all the amounts have been run through the calc (don't approximate!), and you didn't weigh anything wrong, you will get zap free soap that lathers

So.. Are you gonna show us some soap?

Howdy,
I spent the day learning how far behind the curve I am. Certainly going to use a more precise measurements and recipe. I am hoping to get a more predictable staging of the process this time. Probably a simple olive oil/ coconut oil hot process, nothing added. The Goatmilk bastille has hardened enough to cut but it is still moist. Does smell better than the lard soap!!! Very glad that I don't have to obsess over the pH!!
Strangely I was unable to find any buttermilk fragrance of a choice of goatmilk fragrances. May use Honeysuckle to mask the smells I've gotten so far. Also it appears as if there is an industry for making scents that are similar to commercial products.
As to photos I don't know the process for this forum, maybe there is a FAQ about it. Will post if I find out how, they soaps are unimpressive IMHO

Yup! Picture tax!

Soaping 101 has a good hot process video that might help you to watch. I don't think you made a mistake doing too much too fast - sounds like you may have had bad or incomplete information.

Can you describe more what you mean by a "chemical" smell? Did you add any fragrance? Some people say their lard soap smells a bit "porky" - like a pork roast. You might want to smell some Ivory next time you're at the grocery store - it doesn't have fragrance added so you can smell what plain soap smells like.

Hello dixiedragon,
Thanks for the reply! I will look into that video for sure. Yes I was careless, although the lard soap lathers. Hard for me to describe smells, but it doesn't not have a smell.
The smell goes away, and I wouldn't consider it now as very strong or horrid. No I did not use fragrance. The soap also didn't come out white.
Thats a good idea about the Ivory, thanks

 

[dixiedragon]

I'm scratching my head here. Lard soap is generally pretty white, not off-white. Did you use pomace olive oil? That can give soap a greenish color.

What do you mean by this:

Strangely I was unable to find any buttermilk fragrance of a choice of goatmilk fragrances.

Where are you seeing goatmilk fragrances? Also, where did you get your honey suckle fragrance. I think you are being a bit too cavalier here - I think you are charging forwards with an iffy recipe, and iffy process and possibly and iffy fragrance!

So, first of all - SLOW DOWN.

Here is a nice, simple recipe that I've HPed before.

Coconut 20%
Castor 5% (found in laxative section of Wal-mart and other grocery stores)
Lard - 45%
Remaining 25% - olive, sunflower or rice bran. (Or a mix of those)
5% superfat (this is a standard setting on all lye calculators that I have seen)

How big is your crock pot? Plan your recipe to fill it by half.

A 6 oz crockpot holds 192 oz. (You can google Quarts to Ounces to find a calculator.)
192/2 = 96. Soap is roughly 2/3 oil and 1/3 water. 96/3 = 32. So, your recipe should roughly have 32 oz water and 64 oz oils.

Here are instructions to find out how much soap will fit in your mold:
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/calculate-amount-of-soap-for-mold-517198

Once you have figured out the batch size that will work for your slow cooker and your mold, plug your numbers into a soap calculator. I recommend SoapCalc.

Here is a tutorial for using Soap Calc. A lot of us here are using Soapee or Soap Making Friend, but I feel like those 2 might have a bunch of options you don't need right now.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-use-soap-calc-tutorial.49627/

 

[GlenS]

I'm scratching my head here. Lard soap is generally pretty white, not off-white. Did you use pomace olive oil? That can give soap a greenish color.

What do you mean by this:


Where are you seeing goatmilk fragrances? Also, where did you get your honey suckle fragrance. I think you are being a bit too cavalier here - I think you are charging forwards with an iffy recipe, and iffy process and possibly and iffy fragrance!

So, first of all - SLOW DOWN.

Here is a nice, simple recipe that I've HPed before.

Coconut 20%
Castor 5% (found in laxative section of Wal-mart and other grocery stores)
Lard - 45%
Remaining 25% - olive, sunflower or rice bran. (Or a mix of those)
5% superfat (this is a standard setting on all lye calculators that I have seen)

How big is your crock pot? Plan your recipe to fill it by half.

A 6 oz crockpot holds 192 oz. (You can google Quarts to Ounces to find a calculator.)
192/2 = 96. Soap is roughly 2/3 oil and 1/3 water. 96/3 = 32. So, your recipe should roughly have 32 oz water and 64 oz oils.

Here are instructions to find out how much soap will fit in your mold:
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/calculate-amount-of-soap-for-mold-517198

Once you have figured out the batch size that will work for your slow cooker and your mold, plug your numbers into a soap calculator. I recommend SoapCalc.

Here is a tutorial for using Soap Calc. A lot of us here are using Soapee or Soap Making Friend, but I feel like those 2 might have a bunch of options you don't need right now.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-use-soap-calc-tutorial.49627/

Hello dixiedragon,
You are absolutely correct about me being too cavalier!!! I have made 2 batches of soap so far, the first was a lard/lye with coconut oil hot process. That indeed came out fairly white I wish I could upload some pictures. The 2nd batch was a hot process goatmilk bastille. Again without using a specific recipe. This one is much more tan-beige in color.
Haven't tried a fragrance yet. I have been looking for a buttermilk scent and a goat milk scent but haven't found one yet. The honeysuckle fragrance oil I have seen on several of the sites suggested to me earlier in a thread. I was concerned over the less than pleasant or even neutral scent of my first batches. But after several days both of them are loosing their scent which is quite acceptable.
A main reason I wanted to make soap is to make a soap that I currently use, that I've found to be mild on my skin. Been testing for some time. It happens to be Crabtree & Evelyn Goat Milk. It is too expensive for me long term. Unfortunately it is made with palm and palm kernel oils so I don't know if that is going to be possible to do myself.
So I am looking for a good mild soap recipe. My train of thought is that an olive oil, coconut oil hot process may be right for the sensitivity. As to the lather, bubbles and such I still don't understand enough. Lost at superfats and water deficit..........
The sites you've listed are https: so I will likely be able to get on them and continue my process of learning. Thanks
I would like to learn the reasoning for the mixture of oils that you've used and what each adds to the soap's final characteristics.

 

[earlene]

If your soap is made HP with goatsmilk, lard and olive oil, even if it's the palest of olive oils, I can see why it didn't come out as pure white as you many have wanted. The heat of the crockpot or whatever you used for your HP method probably heated up the milk enough to change the color of the soap to at least beige. Even so, you also used a fragrance that may have added color. Many fragrances can influence the color of soap. Not all do, but since we don't really know your fragrance, that is possibly another contributing factor. Also the can of evaporated goatsmilk I use starts out beige anyway, so I wouldn't really expect to get snow white soap out of an HP goatmilk soap with that particular goats milk.

How to post photos here at SMF, it is briefly mentioned here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/forum-faqs.56835/

If that isn't enough, let me know, and I can help. Or one of the many other members here can also help. I wasn't able to find a tutorial here, but it's really very easy. There are two ways; one by linking to a photo you store online (such as here at SMF in the Media section), or as an attachment uploaded directly from your computer.

 

[GlenS]

If your soap is made HP with goatsmilk, lard and olive oil, even if it's the palest of olive oils, I can see why it didn't come out as pure white as you many have wanted. The heat of the crockpot or whatever you used for your HP method probably heated up the milk enough to change the color of the soap to at least beige. Even so, you also used a fragrance that may have added color. Many fragrances can influence the color of soap. Not all do, but since we don't really know your fragrance, that is possibly another contributing factor. Also the can of evaporated goatsmilk I use starts out beige anyway, so I wouldn't really expect to get snow white soap out of an HP goatmilk soap with that particular goats milk.

If your soap is made HP with goatsmilk, lard and olive oil, even if it's the palest of olive oils, I can see why it didn't come out as pure white as you many have wanted. The heat of the crockpot or whatever you used for your HP method probably heated up the milk enough to change the color of the soap to at least beige. Even so, you also used a fragrance that may have added color. Many fragrances can influence the color of soap. Not all do, but since we don't really know your fragrance, that is possibly another contributing factor. Also the can of evaporated goatsmilk I use starts out beige anyway, so I wouldn't really expect to get snow white soap out of an HP goatmilk soap with that particular goats milk.

How to post photos here at SMF, it is briefly mentioned here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/forum-faqs.56835/

If that isn't enough, let me know, and I can help. Or one of the many other members here can also help. I wasn't able to find a tutorial here, but it's really very easy. There are two ways; one by linking to a photo you store online (such as here at SMF in the Media section), or as an attachment uploaded directly from your computer.

How to post photos here at SMF, it is briefly mentioned here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/forum-faqs.56835/

If that isn't enough, let me know, and I can help. Or one of the many other members here can also help. I wasn't able to find a tutorial here, but it's really very easy. There are two ways; one by linking to a photo you store online (such as here at SMF in the Media section), or as an attachment uploaded directly from your computer.

Sounds like you've been spot on in your diagnosis, earlene! Let's see if I can get an image on the thread!

Here is a try! The lighter batch is lard/lye and Coconut Oil (1st Batch) and the darker is the Olive oil, coconut oil and evaporated goat milk (2nd Batch).
GlenS

 

[lenarenee]

I'm still very happy that you're not giving up! With trial and error I do think you'll find a recipe that you will like.

The goat's milk soap is darker because of the milk - the sugar's in the milk burn and there is a smell to it. It fades with time.

I actually think I remember reading the ingredient of an Ivory bar - and that there was fragrance in it. I do love the smell of Ivory - no matter the reason for it.

Dixiedragon's recipe is a very good one. If you have dry skin - I'd reduce the coconut oil to 15%, then add that 5% to the lard. I've made tons of high lard soap. I use a high oleic sunflower or safflower (the label should state if its high oleic). Olive oil is acceptable too.

You have sensitive skin, right? Fragrance oils are one of the common causes of irritation. Perhaps focus on finding a recipe you like, before dabbling in fragrances (they are expensive to experiment with!)

About copying the Crabtree recipe: many commercial bars are made from soap "noodles" that are manufactured in huge quantities. The soap company buys tons of them, adds (or doesn't add) their chosen additives like shea butter, goat's milk, fragrance.

You can try to copy their goat milk recipe. Palm oil plus palm kernel oil will make a soap. I just don't think it will be a nice one because the high palm can be waxy . BUT - you don't have to listen to me! Feel free to experiment and see what you think!

 

[GlenS]

I'm still very happy that you're not giving up! With trial and error I do think you'll find a recipe that you will like.

The goat's milk soap is darker because of the milk - the sugar's in the milk burn and there is a smell to it. It fades with time.

I actually think I remember reading the ingredient of an Ivory bar - and that there was fragrance in it. I do love the smell of Ivory - no matter the reason for it.

Dixiedragon's recipe is a very good one. If you have dry skin - I'd reduce the coconut oil to 15%, then add that 5% to the lard. I've made tons of high lard soap. I use a high oleic sunflower or safflower (the label should state if its high oleic). Olive oil is acceptable too.

You have sensitive skin, right? Fragrance oils are one of the common causes of irritation. Perhaps focus on finding a recipe you like, before dabbling in fragrances (they are expensive to experiment with!)

About copying the Crabtree recipe: many commercial bars are made from soap "noodles" that are manufactured in huge quantities. The soap company buys tons of them, adds (or doesn't add) their chosen additives like shea butter, goat's milk, fragrance.

You can try to copy their goat milk recipe. Palm oil plus palm kernel oil will make a soap. I just don't think it will be a nice one because the high palm can be waxy . BUT - you don't have to listen to me! Feel free to experiment and see what you think!

Most of my initial reasoning was the effect of the C&E soap. Now I have been exposed to the expanse of ingredients and additive and stuff in the real soapmaking world and I will plug on. Duplicating the soap seems out of my reach so I will endeavor to persevere with another recipe. Will have to see how the goatmilk bastille debacle plays out.
Thanks again!

 

[Nate5700]

Here is a try! The lighter batch is lard/lye and Coconut Oil (1st Batch) and the darker is the Olive oil, coconut oil and evaporated goat milk (2nd Batch).
GlenS

Yeah I don't think that beige/tan is a bad color for goat milk soap, it will still work just fine. My first couple of batches came out that color, but I'm using powdered added at trace (and doing CP) so I think for me it's less the milk and more the fragrance. My unscented soap is a very light beige, almost white but not quite. I'm trying not to get too hung up on making a perfectly white soap, especially as a beginner.

 

[earlene]

That's about the same color as my non-gelled goat milk soap made with evaporated GM. My formula was different; I used no animal fats, but I did use more dark oils than you, so I think your soap color is fairly light for an HP GM soap.

Awaiting your report on this soap after a nice cure.

 

[GlenS]

Yeah I don't think that beige/tan is a bad color for goat milk soap, it will still work just fine. My first couple of batches came out that color, but I'm using powdered added at trace (and doing CP) so I think for me it's less the milk and more the fragrance. My unscented soap is a very light beige, almost white but not quite. I'm trying not to get too hung up on making a perfectly white soap, especially as a beginner.

My expectations have diminished as I learned more. But I am not giving up!

That's about the same color as my non-gelled goat milk soap made with evaporated GM. My formula was different; I used no animal fats, but I did use more dark oils than you, so I think your soap color is fairly light for an HP GM soap.

Awaiting your report on this soap after a nice cure.

Fingers crossed!

 

[Nate5700]

Well my shaving soap is cooking as we speak. I put the goat milk powder in before adding the lye per a cream soap tutorial thread from this forum. Now that it's cooking, it's turned orange. I thought that might happen but I'm still a little sad that I won't have a perfect white cream. Should look interesting when it's done.

 

[GlenS]

Well my shaving soap is cooking as we speak. I put the goat milk powder in before adding the lye per a cream soap tutorial thread from this forum. Now that it's cooking, it's turned orange. I thought that might happen but I'm still a little sad that I won't have a perfect white cream. Should look interesting when it's done.

If possible please let us see the results as well as how it satisfied your idea of the shaving soap!
Cheeers

 

[Nate5700]

If possible please let us see the results as well as how it satisfied your idea of the shaving soap!

It's done now, I'm going to post another thread about it.