To reply or not to reply? That is the question

[AnnaMarie]

I appreciate your frustration efficacious gentleman. I struggle with contempt for peers in my social group who I feel aren't using the good common sense God gave them and then watch the results (arghhhh!) But then I have a seventeen year old who humbles me frequently with my own lack of information He helps remind me of my own shortcomings which keeps me in check before I open my mouth (or pen).
I am still new to the forum, but I have made a couple of observations. There are those who view soap making as a craft (paper, glue, and scissors type), and there are those who view soap making as a CRAFT (artisan, professional approach- ie: efficacious gentleman . I also notice a lack of scientifically and scholarly backed up standards which does not help to create the view of soap making as a professional career. There are the things that are known from experience, but then there are things that people clearly divide on. Within these divisions there is often nothing cited, studies on issue, etc. which would help establish a set of standards. Deanna has been a fabulous resource of course . All of this to say, it is good to keep working on educating people in all areas of soap making. I do enjoy this forum...
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[seven]

Hello, as a newbie, I thought I would chip in.

I stumbled across soapmaking as recently as last December via a not-related-to-soapmaking-at-all youtube link to someone's el cheapo 'Smashwords' book on the topic. I was curious, so I purchased the book, which if I recall correctly cost 79p.

Then when I read that book, oh my, what a disappointment.

It was largely a collection of sundry recipes, swept up from dank corners of the internet, with little explanation as to proper procedure. The lye quantities were given in grams and ounces in some recipes, which made sense, while in other recipes, in teaspoons, tablespoons, and cups, which even in my relative naivete I found alarming. Then at the end of the book the author, who incidentally is English and living in England, declares soap making to be a fine and potentially profitable business idea. He clearly is unaware of the EU regulations then, as no mention is made of them.

So yes there is disinformation out there, provided by people who have really not done their homework. But by then my interest in soap making had been ignited, there was no going back, and on searching openlibrary.org I found another, better book:

https://openlibrary.org/books/ia:Th...omplete_Idiot's_Guide_to_Making_Natural_Soaps

Mind you I had to read that book four times before it began making proper sense, I discovered some typos in some of the recipe weights, and since then have found more otherwise highly-rated books also occasionally fall short in this respect.

Even after reading the spots off that book I had so many questions, and so many times my web searches directed me to this forum for answers that I quickly joined this forum, so I could use the search function here.

Yay! The search function!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!

And also like roseb and I daresay the vast majority of folk here, I have learned so very much by just reading new posts and lurking.

Anna x

these days, it is super easy to create a book. esp with the kinds of e-books, kindle, and so on. nothing annoys me more than to see a recipe written in cups/teaspoon/whatever spoon. once i see that, all credibility about the recipe maker is gone forever. i get that generations before us were using a much more simplified measure, and the soap they were creating was just fine. but why step back if we now have a better tool to be more precise, right?

 

[lpstephy85]

I fell victim to feeling attacked in the beginning of my days on the forum because I wanted to jump in to the selling. I'll admit it really ticked me off so I also just lurked for awhile but that helped me to learn a lot. I respond to posts with what I know and if I don't know something I will just subscribe to it and wait for one of the more experienced members to answer. I don't know everything still but I know that I understand enough to be able to sell now and safely do so as well as educate those around me.

I flew by the seat of my pants in to this and I wish I hadn't as I wasted a lot of money that I could have used on more important things but you get wrapped up in it and excited, especially when people around you encourage you and put thoughts of a lovely soap business in your head.

I remember a member a few months back that just wanted to sell sell sell and kept asking for people how to do this recipe and that recipe to the point it was obvious she was just tying to get recipes to use as her own. She quickly disappeared. I never once asked for a recipe because I want my soaps to be mine own.

 

[Lin]

I've also typed responses and then deleted them, or quickly left a thread knowing someone else would reply to avoid stressing myself.

But there ARE published books out there with lye-heavy recipes. Why would the average person doubt a book between covers and think to search out a lye calculator?

My roommate has considered making soap and looking into it. When I first started talking to her about making it, she brought up that she purchased a book so she could make soap but it had a vital error in it. However, she luckily did some more research online and saw the error. And she mentioned how it was such a good thing she had done so before actually trying to make a batch (she still has never made a batch.) I asked her what the error was. The book said to always add water to the lye. :crazy::wtf:

I get very upset with the selling things, people already selling soap after just a few batches. I take it personal because I got interested in handmade soap with purchasing it a few years ago due to skin conditions. I happened to have an online friend who did MP soap. So I asked her about her soap. She admitted to me knowing nothing about CP soap and not knowing if her MP soap would be the best for my skin issues and that I should look into that first. I hadn't known at the time that MP/Glycerin soap was different from CP. I ended up doing a lot of research so I could make an educated purchase, and I'm so glad I did. But how many people really do that? And how many people try to do that, but end up with the wrong sources? Or rely on the websites selling soap to be their source? And I can see how the subject is so highly personal for sellers as well, these people that end up in such a situation can become biased and against handmade soap for life not understanding that they made a poor purchase, and it wasn't a proper representation of whats available.

It also irks me when I see people selling others recipes. From books, online, etc. I think making someone elses recipe for yourself or family for the rest of your life is fine. But if you're selling you should be making your own recipes. I think its rude to the people who went out of their way to share trusted recipes (frequently marked for personal use only!) in books, videos, online. I think its rude to the customers who think the product they're purchasing can only come from you. Who wants to go to an upscale expensive restaurant to be served frozen reheated ravioli and box cake?

To me making my own recipes is the best part of making my own soap. If it wasn't for that, I'd make a single batch of a basic soap that would work well for my skin, and wait until it was almost gone to bother making anything else. But I want to see the results of my recipes, I want to develop different recipes for different purposes, I want to see the results of specific ingredients. Technically I've never followed anyone elses recipe, because my very first batch where I was going to follow someone else's recipe I had to modify it due to available ingredients. My next couple batches were made by looking at a variety of available proved recipes, and then developing my own. And then from there I just had an idea for each batch, and chose my ingredients for it from that idea and messed with soapcalc until I was happy. That's just me though, if I hadn't waited so long to start making soap I'm sure I would have made a bunch from proven recipes first. However financially I had to wait much longer than most do before starting soaping, so I spent the time researching how to make recipes and what each oil adds etc.

I'm a researcher type of personality, I love to learn and read as much as I can about things. But thats only half of the equation, the other half being experience. I don't think research can take the place of experience, but I think research can shape the experience to reach things faster and deeper. Someone could make soap for 20 years and still have no idea what they're doing, someone else could make soap for 5 and know 10x as much because of having the 'right' kind of experience.

 

[neeners]

100% agreed with everyone.

sometimes I just want to educate people, but some people just aren't ready to learn. or those out there picking fights. it's so frustrating!

 

[shunt2011]

I totally agree with Gent....I to have found myself typing, deleting etc on a response just to reign myself in. I get so frustrated with some of the posts (mostly those wanting to sell after making 1-2 batches). I always interject my thoughts and what I did as a soft message to think harder before jumping in. I read so much and check out so many forums and read almost every post before I ever made my first batch. I still learn things on a regular basis from those on this forum. I too don't mind the newbie questions as long as it seems they have done some of the research involved in the process. I with Gent on the vinegar thing...I had some pretty bad lye burns from digging out lye from a 55 lb bag and tried the vinegar thing once...that was enough.. Now just rinse, rinse and then wash with soap and rinse more. Vinegar burned like a mofo...made it 10 time worse...never again.

 

[grayceworks]

...It also irks me when I see people selling others recipes...
...I think its rude to the customers who think the product they're purchasing can only come from you. Who wants to go to an upscale expensive restaurant to be served frozen reheated ravioli and box cake?

OMG this comment reminded me of that lady with the 'bakery' on Kitchen Nightmares who had pics of all this delicious looking food and beautiful bakery creations and a perfect bakery display, and when they actually went in there, they had frozen raviolis and were buying the baked goods elsewhere and claiming she did it... AND she had stolen nearly every pic on her facebook and website from other sites and they were not her pics or her creations at all!!! And she claimed they were and that someone must have hacked all those other websites and put her pics on them omg it was the craziest thing I ever saw.

She's since taken down most of the stolen pics, but it's interesting, because when I was viewing one of this forum's member's gorgeous cake creations, I recognized them! The crazy Kitchen Nightmares lady had previously stolen and this member's beautiful pics on her facebook site! They've been taken down thankfully, so this member's pics are safe again, but yes, that is something that really bugs me.

I have seen already the same thing happen with a soap website. A new soaper eager to sell but no decent soap pics because her batches weren't quite what one would call saleable goods -- stole pics off an experienced soapers site, and somebody noticed.

That sort of stuff is a big deal to me, as a graphic designer by trade, IP law was drilled into my head, and I've also had issues with IP theft of my own work. Nobody likes it when someone else takes credit for all YOUR hard work.

Or when you've spend years and $$$$$ on schooling for your trade, and someone says hey can you show me how to do that design program really quick so I can start a business or so I can do my own changes to your design and not have to pay you anymore? Oh? The $850 program that I have a license for and spent years learning well, which you've pirated so you can slap some half-assed stuff together and make my future clients wary of ALL designers?

I know I'm still pretty new to soap. Have plenty of experience in other bath products, and I still only mostly deal with friends and co-workers on those. And I take the time to learn well and thoroughly, and to learn the hows and whys of things so I can do it right and make it my own and learn it inside and out, instead of taking a recipe someone else designed and pretending that following that pretty well makes me a good soap-maker.

I aspire to be a good soap-maker. I now use only my own created recipes, and a few of them are pretty good. But geez, I still have TONS to learn, so I don't see how people can make a few batches of someone else's recipe and think they're ready to sell...

That's like the clients I mentioned with their pirated programs thinking they're gonna take my work and make all their own stuff from it now, since they learned photoshop or quarkxpress from youtube. Makes me want to take them out of my portfolio cuz I don't want to be identified with the mess they end up making.

Gawd... sorry for the rant but had to get it off my chest and it seemed the right thread to do it in....


ETA: and I also start typing stuff lots of times, but then delete. Sometimes because I can see there's gonna be an argument and I prefer to avoid the stress. That, and some reasons mentioned above are why I quit graphic design after 15+ years.

But sometimes I can see they're just looking for someone to do all the work for them, rather than taking the time to TRY and research, search the forum, etc. Sometimes their question has already been asked and answered three threads down!!! So, no, I don't type there either. If they can register for a forum and figure out how to make a post, I'm pretty sure they can use the search button too....


Edited again... I think I'm grumpy today. Maybe I need chocolate....

 

[Dahila]

I have a rule (I am newbie in soaping) first I read the forum, then I use the search bar, and as a result 99% of my questions are answered) You should see me after 2 months or reading watching videos, when I made my first soap (came very good, my hubby love it) shaking hands, watery eyes, panic and anxiety. I survived without any accident and evil lye did not get me) This forum is ok no so many stupid question, but others....
BTW I learned a lot here, and love to check the forum for new posts at least twice a day.

 

[grayceworks]

I have a rule (I am newbie in soaping) first I read the forum, then I use the search bar, and as a result 99% of my questions are answered) You should see me after 2 months or reading watching videos, when I made my first soap (came very good, my hubby love it) shaking hands, watery eyes, panic and anxiety. I survived without any accident and evil lye did not get me) This forum is ok no so many stupid question, but others....
BTW I learned a lot here, and love to check the forum for new posts at least twice a day.

I think that is a great rule of thumb.

 

[Miz Jenny]

I read more than I post and I delete more than I send. I don't want to be known as snarky. I try to be helpful but I do think members should do their research before asking questions so at least their questions make sense. Recipes are recipes and most any recipe you may think is unique is probably already available on the internet. There are, however, many ways to make a recipe unique to your "brand" and that should be proprietary information. Every forum has its trolls looking for an argument. They are ignorant and there's no cure. One learns the difference between discussion and purely argumentative.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

GAAAAAAAAAAH! ((Shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake shake))

 

[Miz Jenny]

EG: And your point is....? :-D

 

[100%Natural]

OMG there are so many questions I can answer, but won't because I just can't be nice about it no matter how I try to type it out.

I also won't answer a lot of questions because of answering questions for the poster in the past without so much as a thank you or a like for the time and effort I've put in on their behalf. Civility not only belongs in society but on forums as well.

Stupid is as stupid does!

 

[dixiedragon]

While the selling thing bothers me a bit, the question thing doesn't. I certainly did NO research before I made my first batch! I just followed the instructions in the book. I lucked out and it went well. I don't think it occurs to people to research beyond what the book tells them. when cooking I don't do research on the recipe, I just follow the recipe. And if the recipe is gross, then I might look up similar recipes and see what went wrong.

 

[Susie]

Speaking as a newbie, I can't tell you how actually helpful even those argumentative posts are. Let me explain...

I see a post that starts out with a question/statement. Sometimes I get a gut feeling that they are wrong, misinformed, or just arguing for the sake of arguing. If it is the first two, I then have to go dig up info to back up that gut feeling. I learn lots. You just would not believe how much I learn from that research.

As for the arguing for the sake of arguing kind, I make a note of the name and move on. They are often not worth my time or energy to respond.

I agree with the statement about using OPR(other people's recipes) for products you sell. It is wrong. They were kind enough to share that recipe for us newbies. If you are going to sell it, you should at least create your own recipe. I am creating a soap recipe binder. When I put the name of the soap at the top, it gets the initials of whoever created it. This gives them credit, and gives me a place to go look at it again if I mess it up.

Although one day I would love to sell my soaps, I have a very, very long way to go before I get there. I am currently working to find one recipe that I like and I can reproduce with a consistent outcome. Once I get one, then I can work on others. Then, and only then, will I start making my own recipes based on what I have learned.

 

[MzMolly65]

Some people like to learn as they go, flying by the seat of their pants. A lot of the time those pants have holes in them and we are exposed to things that make us shake.

Or they are wearing those fashionable shaved cranberry pants .. LOL .. ok I'm bored already with this broken ankle and stalking around the board causing trouble.

I'm a newbie to soap so I can't comment but I hear the pain from you all. I have only made a few batches of soap but already have people asking when I'm going to start selling and a friend bringing me brochures for the local art/craft sale coming up in July.

I have to admit that since I've been a self employed crafter for many years I'm convinced I could sell soap NOW .. but I remind myself .. cement and plaster can't burn someone's skin off .. unless they fall on it and get road rash.

It doesn't help that a fair bit of money has been spent and it would be nice to recoup that .. then I read the board and have a million more questions pop up .. so .. I pull the reins and slow myself down. *sighs*

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

And once more I come here to scream:

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Thank you, I feel much better now.

 

[shunt2011]

I'm right there with you with a couple posts I saw today....one wanting to do large batches but doesn't know what seizing or accleration is.....OMG. I chose not to respond.

 

[Dennis]

I was so tempted to respond to one particular post with this:



but I restrained myself.

Really, remember when you were new and had no clue? Maybe you didn't know what to ask, how to ask, why the search won't work for you, how to find tutorials people say are here somewhere and just generally lost but really excited about making soap. I don't think new people have changed and the old new people just know more and move around the forum easier. Couple that with new people asking new questions to them but old questions to you and frustration ensues. It's not their fault, it's not your fault, it just is. The new people will progress and become new old people with the same concerns and the older old new people will become just old people. And the cycle will continue. No one means anyone any ill will. Sometimes it might be best to just take a break, go outside, scream in the darkness, mess up a batch of soap or two and after a nice break, return to the forum and ask someone what happened to your soap. They might tell you that's been discussed, use the search feature. :-D

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

That's a very good point, Dennis. I have a lot of time for the questions from newbies - I say, let's call a spade a spade here, I'm still very much a newbie! But when I see some things like today and previously where people are selling and looking for people to update a recipe or provide totally new ones, with no real idea of how the oils go together and so on, it just makes me a little bit sad for their customers