Thought I had conquered DOS... it's back! At a loss :(

[LakeWater]

For @LakeWater and others who sell at craft fairs and farmer's markets, do you ever get DOS on bars that have been out in the heat and sun at market a few times?

Many people have said heat and humidity can cause DOS on just about any bar, which makes me wonder how people who sell outside during the summer in our hot and humid climate avoid that problem...

I can for the most part keep everything out of the sun but of course can't avoid the heat. This certainly may be a contributing factor - maybe some fo's don't like a hot environment?? I always compare soap making to baking - when chemistry is involved sometimes stuff just doesn't turn out the same every time. Makes you crazy for sure!!

 

[linne1gi]

Hello lovely soapers,

It's been a while since I've posted and I hope everyone is well. I posted a thread in the beginner's forum about DOS back in May and after a lot of research and encouraging and supportive feedback from the community, I thought I had kicked the problem to the curb. Alas, while adjusting some of my bars on the curing rack today, I noticed a single spot of DOS on some bars that I made on 5/22, after I had made some substantial adjustments to my process to avoid DOS. My heart sank. I am truly at a loss.

My hope with this post is to spell out my recipe and process in detail so that the hive mind might be able to spot something I have missed. My overall soaping skills have increased significantly in recent months and I still have aspirations of selling at local craft fairs one day, but I need to figure out why this continues to be a problem. Apologies ahead of time for the length.

INGREDIENTS:

I order my oils in bulk (OO from Sam's with use-by date at least 1 year out; 92 degree CO, Shea butter, avocado, and castor oil from Bulk Apothecary) and additives (sodium lactate, colorants [primarily micas, TD, activated charcoal] and fragrances [both FOs and EOs]) from Brambleberry. Lye and sodium gluconate are purchased in bulk from WSP. Oils are stored in my basement in the coolest/darkest room in the house. I did purchase ROE to add to my bulk liquid oils but have not done so yet... perhaps this is an area for improvement. I only use distilled water.

SUPPLIES:

I use a large glass mixing beaker from BB to melt oils and #5 plastic containers for mixing the lye solution and pouring smaller batches of batter. After first experiencing DOS, I switched to using silicone spatulas and/or stainless steel utensils only (as I had been using some spatulas and whisks that were of unknown composition and had previously been mixing lye solution in a glass beaker before I realized that was a no no). I only have a handful of silicone molds from BB and love them for ease of release and clean up.

*Side note - I do not have a dishwasher and wash all my equipment by hand. We do have hard water. I purchased a set of dedicated white cotton towels to use during soaping so they don't get accidentally mixed up with kitchen towels and get gunky... prior to mixing anything, I wipe the insides of all my containers thoroughly with clean towels in the hope that it might help decrease any mineral residues from the hard water. Whether that works, who knows.

RECIPE & PROCESS:

After struggling with DOS initially, I decided to switch to a base recipe that was tried and tested so I could hone my skills and eliminate as much variation as possible between batches. I settled on using the "eco-friendly cold process soap recipe" from Lovely Greens (https://lovelygreens.com/eco-friendly-cold-process-soap-recipe-instructions/#recipe) since I prefer plant-based oils and will eventually market the bars as palm-free (I've been having trouble finding responsibly sourced palm at a cost effective price point and have so far chosen to avoid it altogether) and vegan-friendly. I did tweak the recipe a bit and for the last 3 months have been using the following base recipe for a 2# batch:

50% olive oil - 454g
25% coconut oil (92 degree) - 227g
20% Shea butter - 181g
5% castor oil - 45g

Lye - 128g
Distilled water - 192g
This equates to 40% lye solution. I live in a humid climate and was hoping to decrease the amount of water that would need to evaporate during cure.

Superfat - 3% (decreased from 5% with the hope of decreasing risk of DOS)
Total batch weight - 1227g

Sodium gluconate - added at 0.5% total batch weight, or 6g to the above recipe. I add this to the distilled water and microwave x 10s to help dissolve it completely before adding lye.
Sodium lactate - added at 1 tsp PPO to cooled lye solution.

I chose to go with SG instead of other chelators like EDTA after reading Deanna's posts on Classic Belles. There are a variety of reasons I prefer SG that I won't get into here. I suppose I could always try switching to EDTA if this continues to be a problem.

The above recipe is what I've been using as a base for nearly all of my bars over the last 3 months while I've been practicing. I occasionally tweak things to add avocado oil or decrease the lye concentration to facilitate more intricate swirls, but overall the base recipe consistently behaves well and I feel like I know exactly what to expect with it. The finished bars are firm (which I like), feel great on my skin, and last longer than some of the other recipes I'd used in the past.

For the batch I made on 5/22 that I just noticed spots on today, I used the recipe as detailed above. I used sage green mica from Brambleberry for color (added 1.5 tsp directly to melted oils and blended as this was a solid-colored bar) and 1 oz of rejuvenating eucalyptus FO (also from Brambleberry) for a light scent based on the fragrance calculator. I soaped at about 120-125 degrees, added batter to a silicone log mold, then CPOP'd (preheated to 170 degrees, turned oven off but kept light on) for 3 hours and left the mold in the oven overnight. I unmolded and cut the bars the next day. I measure with a plastic tape measure and use a clean kitchen knife to cut the bars by hand.

STORAGE:

Curing bars are kept on a curing rack in my basement. I use #5 plastic cafeteria trays so the bars do not come in contact with any metal. We do live in a humid climate, so I have a dehumidifier running next to the rack at all times and also hang a bag of DampRid on the rack as back up. I rotate the bars about once a week for the first 1-2 weeks (or whenever I can). I wear gloves when handling the bars. We do keep the house fairly warm but I would guess that ambient temperature downstairs is probably no more than 75 degrees, even in the hottest parts of the summer.

I do not currently have a cover over my curing rack. I do have a dog and 3 cats in the home, so there is the potential for animal hair and dust to land on the bars while they are curing.

The bars I noticed spots on today are nearly 3 months old (made 5/22). Out of 10 bars, I only see one small spot on two of the bars and they are on one of the cut surfaces, not the edges.

QUESTION:

1. Are there any glaringly obvious mistakes or areas for improvement based on what I described above? Aside from adding the ROE to liquid oils and/or switching to EDTA, does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions to improve my process?

I realize that there are LOTS of experienced soapers who have never experienced DOS (even many who don't use a chelator or ROE) and this truly blows my mind. I do my best to be meticulously clean, use fresh ingredients and equipment made of appropriate materials, added the chelator, and store and handle the bars with care. I have tried to examine each step of my process to hunt for things that could be causing DOS, but I simply don't know what I am doing wrong.

I have attached photos of the two eucalyptus bars that developed DOS in addition to my notes for that batch. There are also two plain, unscented bars I made from the same recipe that also developed DOS.

Because I want to end on a positive note after writing this discouraging post, I have also included pictures of some of the bars I've made over the last few months. My skills are definitely getting better, just have to figure this dang DOS out once and for all!

View attachment 78635View attachment 78636View attachment 78637View attachment 78638View attachment 78639

@justsomeguy is RO filtered water something your purchase? If so, where? I think my in-laws have a built-in RO filter in their home but we do not.

@LakeWater yes, I've definitely heard that about FOs too! Unfortunately in my case, I made a few batches of "pure & simple" bars with ZERO additives - no fragrances, no colors, no SL or SG... just OO/CO/SB/castor, distilled water and lye and still, a few bars got a single spot (that doesn't smell like crayons, at least not yet).

View attachment 78651

I live in South Florida and have had to deal with DOS several times. This is what I have done. I add citric acid (and extra lye) to every soap. I also add EDTA to every soap batch. I actually premix my EDTA and use a 1:1 solution. I’m careful to cure my soaps in a non- sunny spot (which is hard, because we have lots and lots of sunny days). I only use distilled water. Even if my bowls/spatulas are clean, I still disinfect them on soaping day with 91% alcohol. Since I have implemented these things I have not had any DOS. It’s been about 5 years I think.

 

[justsomeguy]

@justsomeguy is RO filtered water something your purchase? If so, where? I think my in-laws have a built-in RO filter in their home but we do not.

I installed one made by express water in my house. I have an unlimited supply now
I take a 5 gallon jug with me too farmers markets and give it away in ball aluminum cups (it's usually uncomfortably hot)

@LakeWater yes, I've definitely heard that about FOs too! Unfortunately in my case, I made a few batches of "pure & simple" bars with ZERO additives - no fragrances, no colors, no SL or SG... just OO/CO/SB/castor, distilled water and lye and still, a few bars got a single spot (that doesn't smell like crayons, at least not yet).

I think one of your tools is the problem. But that's just my gut. I assume that your oils are still at least 6 months out from their expiry date, your lye relatively young, your distilled water isn't compromised, your towels are truly clean, and your plastic and stainless steel isn't shedding.

If your water is very hard, you might want to wash all your tools only in distilled water (use a fresh sponge or wash cloth or brush or whatever) then make a small batch of unscented and uncolored soap and see what happens.

 

[Becky1024]

For @LakeWater and others who sell at craft fairs and farmer's markets, do you ever get DOS on bars that have been out in the heat and sun at market a few times?

Many people have said heat and humidity can cause DOS on just about any bar, which makes me wonder how people who sell outside during the summer in our hot and humid climate avoid that problem...

I sell at farmers markets and have seen that bars that are in the sun and heat have may get DOS. I requested a move to the shady side of the market, and only take a little more than I think will sell that day. It helps a lot.

Since you are CPOPing the loaves, maybe they are getting a little too hot. You might want to try another method to gel like wrapping the loaves in blankets / towels, or use a heating pad. Then observe the bars and see if DOS develops.

 

[Chaiat5]

I live in South Florida and have had to deal with DOS several times. This is what I have done. I add citric acid (and extra lye) to every soap. I also add EDTA to every soap batch. I actually premix my EDTA and use a 1:1 solution. I’m careful to cure my soaps in a non- sunny spot (which is hard, because we have lots and lots of sunny days). I only use distilled water. Even if my bowls/spatulas are clean, I still disinfect them on soaping day with 91% alcohol. Since I have implemented these things I have not had any DOS. It’s been about 5 years I think.

Hi!
I’ve just restarted soapmaking… I’ve noticed that some of my soaps have a shorter shelf life. I thought of using citric acid. Do you use BOTH citric acid and EDTA?

 

[pjknight]

I am an experienced soaper and sell a lot at our local farmers market. After doing this for 10 years I am CONVINCED that the few times I have gotten dos it is from the fragrance oil. When all things stay the same for all my batches and the only variable is the fo it's the only thing that makes sense. Some bars got the awful "box of crayons" smell and some did not - just an orange spot. I think some suppliers may be changing their formulas due to supply shortages and cost. I feel like since covid some of my fo's aren't quite the same. I have heard others say that lavender fo's are the worst and I agree. I had dos 2 years in a row with BB lavender fo and I had reordered a new bottle.
So don't know if there's a "common denominator" ingredient among some of these fo's that's problematic we can't know since formulas are proprietary.

I too bought Lavender from Bramble berry and got DOS within a few weeks. I am also conviinced DOS has alot to do with Fragrance oils and essential oils. I am no longer offering that scent. As a matter of fact, when I started using BB as my only source of FO's and EO's, my DOS journey began. Prior to using BB I exclusively used Sweet Cakes FO's and EO's. I changed because they discontinued a few of my favorite scents and went to BB as they had a bigger selection. Now I'm second guessing that decision and going to order some scents from SC and see how they turn out

 

[LakeWater]

I too bought Lavender from Bramble berry and got DOS within a few weeks. I am also conviinced DOS has alot to do with Fragrance oils and essential oils. I am no longer offering that scent. As a matter of fact, when I started using BB as my only source of FO's and EO's, my DOS journey began. Prior to using BB I exclusively used Sweet Cakes FO's and EO's. I changed because they discontinued a few of my favorite scents and went to BB as they had a bigger selection. Now I'm second guessing that decision and going to order some scents from SC and see how they turn out

Thanks for your input on BB lavender. I do love many of the BB fo's but recently have tried many from Candle Science and been very happy with them. My go to lavender fo is now their White Sage and Lavender .

 

[pjknight]

Thanks for your input on BB lavender. I do love many of the BB fo's but recently have tried many from Candle Science and been very happy with them. My go to lavender fo is now their White Sage and Lavender .

thanks for that info. I'll check out candle science. Went to Sweet cakes today and alot has changed there. Not many scents to choose from, so its a no go for me