The Difference ? HP & CP w/ Gel

[jbarad]

I admit I'm relatively new to soaping, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around what the difference is in how HP & CP with a gel differ at the time of unmolding.

I CPHP and I know that my superfatting, etc. is different because I actually get to choose which oils get superfatted, use less fragrance and so on. With cp w/ gel you don't do anything after the "cook" it's all tossed in before hand.

Now I see people say HP soap is ready right away, only really needs to cure maybe a week or two, and CP soap should cure for no less than 4 weeks. But I gotta tell ya, I don't see a bit of difference between HP soaps and CP w/ Gel soaps.

When you HP all you're doing is adding an external heat source to speed up the saponification. With CP w/ Gel you are doing the same thing basically. Either by stuffing it in the oven or by insulating the molds. So in the end, when you unmold, haven't you really just HP'd your soap ?

 

[honor435]

I admit I'm relatively new to soaping, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around what the difference is in how HP & CP with a gel differ at the time of unmolding.

I CPHP and I know that my superfatting, etc. is different because I actually get to choose which oils get superfatted, use less fragrance and so on. With cp w/ gel you don't do anything after the "cook" it's all tossed in before hand.

Now I see people say HP soap is ready right away, only really needs to cure maybe a week or two, and CP soap should cure for no less than 4 weeks. But I gotta tell ya, I don't see a bit of difference between HP soaps and CP w/ Gel soaps.

When you HP all you're doing is adding an external heat source to speed up the saponification. With CP w/ Gel you are doing the same thing basically. Either by stuffing it in the oven or by insulating the molds. So in the end, when you unmold, haven't you really just HP'd your soap ?

I do hp in crock, its ready to use almost immed., when i do cp, i cover it and unmold in 24 , cure for 2-4 wks, i dont put in in the oven to speed up.
The difference in my soaps are cp, i pour and are more smooth bars, hp, you are glopping in molds and have to smooth off excess off top, it doesnt look the same. I like both methods, i use less fragrance in hp, for some reason, maybe something happens to the scent as it saponifies in cp method? Good luck, isnt it fun!

 

[jbarad]

I do hp in crock, its ready to use almost immed., when i do cp, i cover it and unmold in 24 , cure for 2-4 wks, i dont put in in the oven to speed up.
The difference in my soaps are cp, i pour and are more smooth bars, hp, you are glopping in molds and have to smooth off excess off top, it doesnt look the same. I like both methods, i use less fragrance in hp, for some reason, maybe something happens to the scent as it saponifies in cp method? Good luck, isnt it fun!

So you don't force gel on your CP soaps ?

I have done both, so I get the whole difference in look ( smooth and creamy vs more rustic in the CPHP )

What I'm getting at is why the difference in cure times ? Gel is what we're doing in the crockpot during HP, gel is what's happening in the mold when insulated or put in oven using CP.

So by normal thinking wouldn't a CP w/ gel soap be ready just as soon as a CPHP soap ? Or on the other hand shouldn't we cure the CPHP soap just as long as the gelled CP soap ?

 

[honor435]

I do hp in crock, its ready to use almost immed., when i do cp, i cover it and unmold in 24 , cure for 2-4 wks, i dont put in in the oven to speed up.
The difference in my soaps are cp, i pour and are more smooth bars, hp, you are glopping in molds and have to smooth off excess off top, it doesnt look the same. I like both methods, i use less fragrance in hp, for some reason, maybe something happens to the scent as it saponifies in cp method? Good luck, isnt it fun!

So you don't force gel on your CP soaps ?

I have done both, so I get the whole difference in look ( smooth and creamy vs more rustic in the CPHP )

What I'm getting at is why the difference in cure times ? Gel is what we're doing in the crockpot during HP, gel is what's happening in the mold when insulated or put in oven using CP.

So by normal thinking wouldn't a CP w/ gel soap be ready just as soon as a CPHP soap ? Or on the other hand shouldn't we cure the CPHP soap just as long as the gelled CP soap ?

I know it is confusing, from what i gather, the cp soap CAN be used earlier, but wont last as long if not cured. I did a ph test on cp soap and it was good after one week, i used it after 2.
Am i forcing gel on cp? i use a wood log mold covered, so yes, if you dont want it to gel, you put in the fridge, i guess. I put some of my leftover cp in plastic mold and it didnt gel, looked good, lighter in color, i think its a matter of preference. IM a newbie too!

 

[Soapmomma]

I don't think it is a matter of saponification really, the cure time is to get rid of the excess water to make a harder, longer lasting bar. Everything I've been told is that within 3 days cp soap has fully saponified but still needs to get rid of all the excess water. From what I understand, even with gel the cp soap could still have some lye in it that needs to saponify. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong cause I'm just going off what I've read.
I HP because I am waaaay too impatient to cure for 4 weeks.

 

[jbarad]

I did an experiment the other week. I poured soap batter into my mold, stuck it in the oven on warm to bring on gel. Once the whole loaf was gelled to the edges I reached in and took a tiny bit of soap from the edge of the loaf and from the middle of the loaf, zap tested it and no zap. Saponification complete.

I do the same thing overall with CPHP, mix it all up and instead of pouring it into the mold I let it sit on warm till it gels about half way thru the blob, then turn the crock pot off and let it do it's own thing then till it's all the way gelled thru the mound of batter. Once it's gelled all the way thru I stir it up, zap test. No zap, saponification complete. I add FO, color and mold ( still very smooth too btw pretty pourable actually )

Anyway my point is cp w/ gel or hp, the end result is the same. Once you have full gel whether in the mold or the crock pot the soap is done in the basic meaning of the word. So why the difference in recommended cure times ?

Are we cooking more water out of it doing it in the crock pot ? I can't see how though really since I use my crock pot on warm and only till the gel starts, then shut it off and let it do it's own thing.

I just can't wrap my mind around the suggested time differences in curing. I would think whether gelled in the mold or cooked in the crock pot it's the same overall chemical process and therefore cure times should basically be the same.

I'm not trying to get someone to say that you can use CP gelled soaps quicker than they recommend now, I'm just trying to understand why the difference. Should I be curing my CPHP soaps longer than most suggest based on the fact that I can't really see much difference in CP gel and CPHP.....Inquiring minds wanna know, yanno ?

 

[cdwinsby]

The purpose of the cure time is two fold. One - to give the bar time to become hard enough for extended use and Two - to give the soap time to mellow and become gentle to the skin.

The longer a soap cures, the gentler it is on your skin.

Take the same recipe and suppose you made 2 batches, one HP and the other CP.

Once both batches had reached one week in cure, the HP bars would be harder than the CP bars since the HP soap loses water during the cook.

Which soap would be gentler on your skin? In my opinion they would be the same. Especially if the CP batch gelled.

I honestly can't see anything in the HP process that speeds up the cure other than the water loss aspect but just because the soap is harder doesn't make the bar cured.

You still want the soap to be gentle on your skin.

That being said, I've used very new soap before and was fine. It was definately drying but my skin didn't fall off or anything!

 

[jbarad]

I honestly can't see anything in the HP process that speeds up the cure other than the water loss aspect but just because the soap is harder doesn't make the bar cured.

Thank you

This is what I was getting at. I could see no difference other than water in a CP w/ Gel and a HP soap, so the conflicting recommendations about cure time really had me puzzled. Being relatively new to soaping though, I thought perhaps there could be something that I was missing that factored in.

What I suspected is then true. the HP bar should in fact cure just as long as the CP bar for reasons completely outside saponification.

The HP bar may be harder out of the mold or in a week, but not really "gentler" and seasoned long enough.

 

[cdwinsby]

[quote="jbarad
What I suspected is then true. the HP bar should in fact cure just as long as the CP bar for reasons completely outside saponification.

The HP bar may be harder out of the mold or in a week, but not really "gentler" and seasoned long enough.[/quote]

Rhonda,

It's definately what I believe but I can't say it is actually 'true' since I don't have anything scientific to back it up with.

 

[MikeInPdx]

It's definately what I believe but I can't say it is actually 'true' since I don't have anything scientific to back it up with.

Well....it isn't exactly scientific, but I have noticed the same thing as Cathy.

 

[Etelka]

The purpose of the cure time is two fold. One - to give the bar time to become hard enough for extended use and Two - to give the soap time to mellow and become gentle to the skin.

The longer a soap cures, the gentler it is on your skin.

Take the same recipe and suppose you made 2 batches, one HP and the other CP.

Once both batches had reached one week in cure, the HP bars would be harder than the CP bars since the HP soap loses water during the cook.

Which soap would be gentler on your skin? In my opinion they would be the same. Especially if the CP batch gelled.

I honestly can't see anything in the HP process that speeds up the cure other than the water loss aspect but just because the soap is harder doesn't make the bar cured.

You still want the soap to be gentle on your skin.

That being said, I've used very new soap before and was fine. It was definately drying but my skin didn't fall off or anything!

Totally agree

 

[kellistarr]

I feel the process that HP goes through (the cook) lends something extra to the HP bar. If your recipe comes out correctly (meaning you haven't added too much liquid or too much oil), I believe that you can use the HP bar the next day. It's certainly hard enough and the lather factor is certainly there. After 2 weeks, the HP bar becomes a superb bar of soap. After a day or so HP smells the way it's going to smelll and looks the way it's going to look. There usually isn't too much change to come except it just gets drier and milder.

I believe that CP needs every bit of the 4 weeks to make all its changes.
It needs time to harden, time to make what is going to be it's final appearance, time for the scent to fully come through. I don't think it's all about the zap factor. Yes, it's in soap form and Yes, you can get into the shower with it, but I don't believe it's all that it can be after just a 2 week cure. What I notice after a 4 week cure of CP is that I'm getting better lather, my soap smells like I want it to. With both soaps, regardless of age, I still need to apply moisturizer, so it's not that I believe if I let my soaps cure for 4 weeks, I'm going to get some kind of moisturizing bar.

All that said, I let my CP and HP cure for as long as I possibly can.

 

[jcandleattic]

The purpose of the cure time is two fold. One - to give the bar time to become hard enough for extended use and Two - to give the soap time to mellow and become gentle to the skin.
The longer a soap cures, the gentler it is on your skin.
Take the same recipe and suppose you made 2 batches, one HP and the other CP.
Once both batches had reached one week in cure, the HP bars would be harder than the CP bars since the HP soap loses water during the cook.
Which soap would be gentler on your skin? In my opinion they would be the same. Especially if the CP batch gelled.
I honestly can't see anything in the HP process that speeds up the cure other than the water loss aspect but just because the soap is harder doesn't make the bar cured.
You still want the soap to be gentle on your skin.
That being said, I've used very new soap before and was fine. It was definately drying but my skin didn't fall off or anything!

I'm another one that agrees with these statements.