Syndet shampoo bar - any tips for forming a smooth looking bar?

[earlene]

Thank you for sharing that, amd. I learned something new as a result. I learned that if I save pages to PDF (via the print option), then I can enlarge them enough to read them when I couldn't read them on my screen. Nice!

 

[amd]

@earlene that is a good tip to know! I'm getting to the point in my life where I am struggling a bit to read on screen so this will come in handy

 

[DeeAnna]

I've had the same trouble, Carolyn -- Susan's syndet shampoo recipes might be firm at first, but they soften up in the shower and get progressively softer, even when I take care to let them dry out. They're tolerable in the winter, but not so much in summer.

We have an outdoor shower and the outdoor humidity has been over 90% for the past several weeks. The shampoo bar I have at the outdoor shower has softened to the texture of firm peanut butter, although the regular (lye) soap sitting right next to it is fine. I just pinch off a bit of the shampoo "bar" to wash my hair -- it's not practical to rub it on my hair as a shampoo bar would normally be used. Not what I want, but it's what I've got.

 

[Amy78130]

When I first started making shampoo bars, I used this recipe http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/handmade101/how-to-make-recipes/conditioning-shampoo-bars.aspx
Perfect every time! They also answer any questions I have! I did make a few tweaks, looking at each ingredients INCI. I was able to find the ingredients for less at my favorite online supply stores. Wholesale supplies plus is on my favorites list, just not for everything.

This is the recipe that started my obsession. I just joined Susan’s blog and love it! She experiments, always uses percentage for ingredients in her formulas and gives suggestions for swapping out ingredients. To me, it’s been 100% worth the cost of the membership!

 

[KimT2au]

@DeeAnna I have no advice on recipe but have you thought about piping your dough/batter?

 

[DeeAnna]

@Amy78130 -- Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check that recipe out and compare it to the ones I've been using. I am also a fan of Susan (swiftcraftymonkey).

@KimT2au -- Not sure what difference piping would make. Can you explain?

 

[cmzaha]

When I first started making shampoo bars, I used this recipe http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/handmade101/how-to-make-recipes/conditioning-shampoo-bars.aspx
Perfect every time! They also answer any questions I have! I did make a few tweaks, looking at each ingredients INCI. I was able to find the ingredients for less at my favorite online supply stores. Wholesale supplies plus is on my favorites list, just not for everything.

This is the recipe that started my obsession. I just joined Susan’s blog and love it! She experiments, always uses percentage for ingredients in her formulas and gives suggestions for swapping out ingredients. To me, it’s been 100% worth the cost of the membership!

I had to add in stearic acid to help stop melting, mushing and use BTMS25 or BTM25/50 split. Just using emulsifying wax would not keep mine from getting mushy. With a few minor changes such as some dimethicone, butter and 2 liquid surfs mine recipe is similar

 

[KimT2au]

[USER=28070]@KimT2au -- Not sure what difference piping would make. Can you explain?[/USER]

You were saying the batter did not look good in the mould and needed to be put under pressure to get a nice finish. If you pipe the batter/dough it will be under a slight pressure anyway but I was thinking more of taking the eye away from the imperfections and drawing attention to the shampoo being in the shape of something. I am not sure if I am explaining that well or not.

 

[DeeAnna]

@KimT2au -- Okay -- I understand now. Thanks for clarifying!

@cmzaha -- I checked the link to the WSP recipe last night after I wrote my last post. I see my recipe is fairly similar to the WSP version. I'm not getting any warm, fuzzy feeling that the WSP recipe will solve my issue.

Like I said in an earlier post, this general recipe works all right as long as the humidity is fairly low, such as in winter or if the air conditioner is running. It fails when the bar is kept in a hot and humid environment. The shampoo bar at my outdoor shower this summer rapidly turned into a mushy paste. I treat a shampoo bar exactly the same as regular bar soap -- on a dish where it can drain and dry. In the same conditions, regular soap stays fine; shampoo bar does not. I need to make a new batch, so I'll do some more tweaking per your suggestions.

 

[amd]

@DeeAnna I made the moisturizing shampoo bar recipe from WSP (the only difference I can see is less SCI and added horsetail butter) I posted on this thread. That recipe is holding up well as far as not being mushy goes. I've been using it for three weeks so my small sample bar is just about out. Once it got to a certain thinness, it was very flexible before it would break. Of course, at the moment my house is neither hot or humid. I'll have to wait until next summer to see what it does in those conditions (we have an old house with no A/C so the bedrooms get hot and sticky). Although I'm thinking by then I will have tweaked the recipe a bit.

 

[DeeAnna]

An update -- The last batch of shampoo bars I made used a recipe shared by a soapy friend. I made a few minor tweaks to compensate for my not having all the ingredients; next batch will be per the recipe.

Now that it's fall here in Iowa, the weather has been much less humid, and the bars are staying nicely firm in the shower. Like Amd, I too will need to see how this formulation responds next summer to several weeks of 90% humidity -- that will be the proof I need whether a syndet shampoo bar can truly meet the goal of staying sufficiently firm.

One thing I want to share is that sodium lactate is not the be-all-end-all of must-have additives. I'm seeing a lot of people using it in syndet shampoo bars. Sure, SL might help one make an initially firm bar, but I know can meet that goal without SL. Long term firmness is more important to me, and I suspect SL works against that goal, because SL is a humectant. I believe the SL absorbing and holding water vapor is one reason why my previous batch of bars got so very soft when the humidty was high. Also, if your hair gets frizzy in humid weather like mine does, the last thing you want to do is include a humectant in your hair care products.

 

[asmita]

Does one need to add a chelating agent to ensure good foam in hard water? I don't have access to SLSa so I've used SCI and CAPB. The temperature in summers hit 45C so I need to formulate for that temperature and hard water.

 

[DeeAnna]

Synthetic detergents don't react with hard water minerals to make soap scum like lye-based soap does, so a chelator isn't needed when working with syndets because soap scum doesn't happen.

Sometimes a chelator is added to some products as part of the preservative system, however. A chelator ties up the trace elements that microorganisms need to thrive, so tiny amounts of a chelator like EDTA are helpful in discouraging microbial growth.

 

[asmita]

Thanks @DeeAnna !

 

[decisions]

Yes, I agree the conditioner version is much easier to get a polished look than the shampoo version. I have made 3 mini batches (100 g per batch) of the shampoo so far, all with minor tweaks, and 2 mini batches of the conditioner. Very pleased with both.

A 45-50 gram shampoo bar gives me and DH about 1 month of shampoos. The conditioner lasts much, much longer than the shampoo, even though I'm also using it as an in-shower lotion bar. It has a slight edge as a hair conditioner but is also nice as a non-greasy silky summer-weight lotion for skin.

Here's my last recipe for the syndet shampoo bar:

Simple shampoo bar (syndet based)

Heated phase
Solid fat … 3% … Possibilities: tallow, lard, palm, mango butter, coconut, babassu, etc. Don't go overboard on fats -- this is a shampoo not a conditioner.
Conditioning emulsifier … 3% … This is a generic version of the emulsifier BTMS. Can use emulsifying wax (e-wax) instead.
Stearic acid … 3% … Thickener. Could substitute cetyl alcohol. Makes the bar a bit less water soluble so it doesn't dissolve too easily.
SCI … 28% … Sodium cocoyl isethionate. Surfactant, powder. Mild. Creamy foam.
SLSA … 33% … Sodium lauryl sulfoacetate. Surfactant, powder. Not quite as mild as SCI. Adds bubbles.
Cocamidopropyl betaine … 26% … aka CAPB. Surfactant, liquid. Do NOT use more CAPB, even though you might want to.

Heated phase OR cool-down phase
Preservative … 0.5% … Preservative is NOT OPTIONAL. I use phenonip and put it in the heated phase. Liquid Germall Plus is fine, but is heat sensitive, so include it in the cool-down phase. See notes below for more.

Cool-down phase
Panthenol … 2% … Optional. If you omit this, add this % to the SCI or SLSA.
Fragrance … 1.5% … Optional. If you omit this, add this % to the SCI or SLSA.

For a pale to medium color -> add 1 drop of liquid colorant per 100 grams of product. Add to the heated phase. I use ultramarine blue or green chromium oxide in glycerin.

Put all ingredients for the heated phase (including colorant if using) into a microwave safe container. Microwave in 15-30 second bursts. Stir thoroughly after each heating. Repeat until all ingredients are all melted and there are no variations in the color (if you're using colorant).

When fully melted and mixed, the product will be a sticky paste. Do NOT add any water, cocamidopropyl betaine, or other water-based ingredients to loosen the product.

Stir in the cool-down ingredients when the temp is below 120 F (50 C). Immediately glop into small containers. I make about 50 grams per bar -- this is about 1 month of shampoos for me and my DH. Put into the refrigerator to cool and firm up. Unmold and let the product dry for a day or two before use.

Notes:

SCI and SLSA are dusty and very irritating to the nose and lungs. When weighing and mixing these products when they're dry, be careful -- work under a vent hood, work outdoors, or wear a respirator.

SCI comes in a flake, noodle or "prill" form. The first two forms may have stearic acid in the product. The prill (a very fine bead) does not, and this is what I am using and what this recipe is based on. If you get SCI with stearic in it, you may want to adjust the recipe.

It may be possible to use SCI for all of the SLSA if you want to try only one solid surfactant. I haven't done this, but I would first try only SCI if I thought I wanted to simplify further.

The temp limit of 120 F (50 C) is critical if using Liquid Germall Plus. If using Phenonip which goes in the heated phase, then the only cool-down ingredients are the fragrance and panthenol. Temperature isn't too critical for these ingredients, so I add them right after I know the mixture is fully melted. That lets me get the paste in the molds as soon as possible when it's warm and easier to handle. The trade-off is there might be a little less fragrance in the finished product, but that's okay with me.

I want to acknowledge that this recipe has been adapted from one provided by "Cathy" at The Dish. My thanks to Cathy for her generosity!

This recipe is also provided in this thread but I'm repeating it here, cuz I'm the OP for this thread.

Great thread! This post was most helpful

I was making conditioner bars yesterday and I like germall so I had to let the mixture cool - at 50 it was like applesauce and gloppy. I don't want to use phenonip - is there a different heat tolerant paraben-free, formaldehyde donor-free preservative to use besides germall?

 

[SoaperForLife]

Great thread! This post was most helpful

I was making conditioner bars yesterday and I like germall so I had to let the mixture cool - at 50 it was like applesauce and gloppy. I don't want to use phenonip - is there a different heat tolerant paraben-free, formaldehyde donor-free preservative to use besides germall?

Try Optiphen Plus next time.

 

[decisions]

Thank you! I was just poking around on WSP looking at options - I had forgotten about Optiphen ~

 

[lsg]

You have probably seen this already, but I will post it. I would love a translation, if anyone can help me with the amounts of each ingredient.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/video-tutorial-crystal-clear-syndet-bar.74730/#post-764487

 

[DeeAnna]

There is recipe info in the comments section below the video. You have to go to YouTube itself to see this. Is this what you need, @lsg? -->

配方/Recipe
椰油醯基谷胺酸/Cocoyl glutamic acid: 350g
丙二醇/propylene glycol: 90g
甘油/glycerin: 100g
純水/purified water: 175g
三乙醇胺/triethanol amine: 250g
茉莉花瓣香精/demure jasmine petals fragrance oil: 20ml
氨基酸起泡劑/sodium lauroyl methylaminopropionate: 35g
金箔/gold foil: 適量/moderate

 

[lsg]

Yes, thanks DeeAnna.