Superfat adjusting in CP because the EO blend add more fat to the batch

[NcDon]

Hi, i'm new to this hobby and need advice from experienced CP homemade soap makers. Does putting 3% ppo 100% pure EO in the batch mean that the standard SF will increase by 3%, from 5% to 8%? What will result, an oily soap or a cream? I think I will lower the SF standard to 3% for a good saponification. My EOs are also oils and will increase overall SF by at least 2%. What do you think?

By the way, In picture is my very first try with 64% olive oil and 36% coconut oil 76 deg. EO: peppermint and lemongrass 2.5% ppo. What you see are soap bars, not ice cream LOL. The only silicone mold I had at that time...

39-24-56-24-15-INS160. PH 9.6-9.8 measured with a calibrated PH meter. I used water discount at 30% for CP. Distiled water:Lye (99.7%) Ratio 2.07:1. The soap washes very well, lathers strongly, moisturizes effectively and does not leave the skin dry. The feeling of soap contact with the skin is very pleasant and the scent is refreshing, it does not compare to the synthetic detergents illegally called soaps from stores. Thank you in advance for your answers.

 

[dibbles]

Hi and welcome! Essential oils do not Saponi fly and will not affect your super fat amount. Your soaps are lovely.

 

[AliOop]

Saponi fly

 

[dibbles]

@AliOop I Saponi fly once, and evidently it autocorrected again and I didn't notice. But then we wouldn't be able to gaze on the beautiful image of the rare Saponi fly.

 

[NcDon]

Hi and welcome! Essential oils do not Saponi fly and will not affect your super fat amount. Your soaps are lovely.

Thanks a lot for the tip. I will follow this advice. Before making my first soap, I learned a lot of useful things from this forum and now I have become a member here. My next attempt is more sophisticated. My new recipe contains five oils and a blend of three EOs. Plus small additions in decent quantities. Sodium Lactate, Citric Acid with NaOH extra lye and Panthenol. Let's see what will result.

As a personal experience, I put the distilled water in the refrigerator at 4 degrees Celsius and then I poured the microparticles of NaOH. The composition heated up instantly to only 70 degrees Celsius and did not create foam, sounds or toxic fumes. I thought that the caustic soda is expired and does not react. But everything turned out perfectly in the end.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I love your ice cream bars! They look like they will handle very nicely with their rounded edges.

 

[DeeAnna]

Just a comment -- "Water discount" is a concept that can be defined several different ways, so it's hard to know exactly what you mean when you say you used a water discount of 30%. I realize you also gave the water:lye ratio as well -- that is all that is needed to define the water content in the batch.

If you want your meaning to not be confusing, give the "lye concentration" or "water:lye ratio" without reference to "water discount". These two measurements have exact mathematical meanings that are the same around the world.

 

[NcDon]

Just a comment -- "Water discount" is a concept that can be defined several different ways, so it's hard to know exactly what you mean when you say you used a water discount of 30%. I realize you also gave the water:lye ratio as well -- that is all that is needed to define the water content in the batch.

If you want your meaning to not be confusing, give the "lye concentration" or "water:lye ratio" without reference to "water discount". These two measurements have exact mathematical meanings that are the same around the world.

Wonderful! Great advice. You are right. The water:lye ratio is more accurate than water as a % of oils which is an arbitrary value, 38% or 30% whatever.

I noticed that if the water:lye ratio is constant e.g. 2.0684:1 for each test (one single oil/test) soapcalc.net calculates different water as a percentage of oil weight. Coconut oil at 76 degrees requires 36.01% water. Olive oil needs 26.62% water. So fluid oils require less water than viscous oils. In a multi-oil combination, the water:lye ratio will cause the software (soapcalc or lyecalc) to calculate the exact amount of water you need in a particular recipe. No more, no less.

 

[TheGecko]

I agree with @DeeAnna on the whole 'water discount' business; there is no such thing as a 'water discount', there is just a different Lye Concentration or Water to Lye ratio.

Essential Oils and Fragrance Oils are marketed as 'oils', but aren't like the oils you use to make soap so they don't count. And technically I should calculate the fats in goat milk, but I don't since it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

[DeeAnna]

...water as a % of oils which is an arbitrary value....

I noticed that if the water:lye ratio is constant e.g. 2.0684:1 for each test (one single oil/test) soapcalc.net calculates different water as a percentage of oil weight. ... So fluid oils require less water than viscous oils. In a multi-oil combination...

I agree with you that water:lye ratio or lye concentration is more useful from a chemistry point of view than "water as % of oils." But, despite my frustration at the use of "water as % of oils," I do have to say "water as % of oils" does have a valid mathematical basis even thought the justification for this calculation is really shaky when you look at the chemistry.

Looking purely at the math, you'll find the "water as % of oils" calculation is inversely related to the average saponification value of the fats being used. As the average sap value of a recipe goes up (for example: a coconut oil soap), the "water as % of oils" calculation calls for less water in proportion to the alkali weight, and vice versa.

The problem with this is soap with a higher average sap value generally benefits from using MORE water in proportion to the alkali weight. You get this direct relationship when you use water:lye ratio or lye concentration.

***

On a related note, it's not strictly correct to think "...fluid oils require less water than viscous oils..." A more accurate way is this -- fats with lower saponification values generally benefit from less water in proportion to the alkali weight. And fats with higher saponification values generally benefit from more water in proportion to the alkali weight.

It just so happens that the liquid fats (oils) we commonly use for soap making tend to have lower sap values and perform better if less water is used when making soap. And the solid fats we use for soap making tend to have higher sap values and benefit from more water when making soap.

So I can see why it's tempting to assume that fats with high sap values => solid fats and fats with a low sap value => oils.

But if you look at fats other than those typically used in soap making, you will find this assumption isn't necessarily correct. One example I can think of easily is fractionated coconut oil (sometimes called medium chain triglycerides, MCT). It has a very high sap value of about 0.24 but it's a liquid, not solid.

 

[Blufuz]

Wait, now I’m confused. Does this “not saponify” principle also apply to fragrance oils? Because aren’t they made up of a normal base oil and then some other things?
And how come essential oils don’t saponify? Are they not really “oils”?

 

[DeeAnna]

Essential oils and fragrance oils are ~not~ fats. EOs, FOs and fats are all lipids, however, which is a specific class of non-polar chemicals, chemicals that are not soluble in water. Lipid - Wikipedia

FOs and EOs from reputable sources should not be diluted with fats for use in bath and body products, including soap. If you put a drop of FO or EO on a strip of white paper and leave the paper in the open air for a day or two to allow the EO or FO to evaporate, you should not see a permanent oily stain remaining on the paper. If you do, the product has been diluted with an oil (liquid fat) and you've either bought a skin-safe perfume or body oil or you've been duped.

Fats are a group of lipids specifically called triglycerides (or tryacylglycerides.) You can only make lye-based soap with triglycerides. Three molecules of NaOH or KOH saponify (chemically react) with one molecule of fat to produce one molecule of soap plus three molecules of glycerin.

Essential oils are not triglycerides, so they don't have a saponification value and don't make soap. While I am aware that some components of some essential oils do react with alkalis (NaOH, KOH, etc.), there is no definitive database that tells exactly how much alkali they consume. You would have to test each and every EO or FO you use to know that answer.

Even though it's likely that some EOs and some FOs do consume some alkali, it's still a reasonable assumption to ignore the amount of alkali consumed. Only a small percentage of EOs or FOs are added to a typical batch of soap and only a small percentage of THAT amount will consume some alkali, so the error is small.

Keep in mind that this whole system of calculating alkali (lye) for soap making is based on the use of averages and (mostly) reasonable assumptions. It's no secret that milks, sugars, EOs and FOs, food purees, and other additives probably consume some alkali, but we use them anyway and ignore the small errors introduced by their use.

 

[Shirley-D]

Essential oils and fragrance oils are ~not~ fats. EOs, FOs and fats are all lipids, however, which is a specific class of non-polar chemicals, chemicals that are not soluble in water. Lipid - Wikipedia

FOs and EOs from reputable sources should not be diluted with fats for use in bath and body products, including soap. If you put a drop of FO or EO on a strip of white paper and leave the paper in the open air for a day or two to allow the EO or FO to evaporate, you should not see a permanent oily stain remaining on the paper. If you do, the product has been diluted with an oil (liquid fat) and you've either bought a skin-safe perfume or body oil or you've been duped.

Fats are a group of lipids specifically called triglycerides (or tryacylglycerides.) You can only make lye-based soap with triglycerides. Three molecules of NaOH or KOH saponify (chemically react) with one molecule of fat to produce one molecule of soap plus three molecules of glycerin.

Essential oils are not triglycerides, so they don't have a saponification value and don't make soap. While I am aware that some components of some essential oils do react with alkalis (NaOH, KOH, etc.), there is no definitive database that tells exactly how much alkali they consume. You would have to test each and every EO or FO you use to know that answer.

Even though it's likely that some EOs and some FOs do consume some alkali, it's still a reasonable assumption to ignore the amount of alkali consumed. Only a small percentage of EOs or FOs are added to a typical batch of soap and only a small percentage of THAT amount will consume some alkali, so the error is small.

Keep in mind that this whole system of calculating alkali (lye) for soap making is based on the use of averages and (mostly) reasonable assumptions. It's no secret that milks, sugars, EOs and FOs, food purees, and other additives probably consume some alkali, but we use them anyway and ignore the small errors introduced by their use.

Wow @DeeAnna ! I just printed this out to keep. Makes me feel smart to know this. Thank you. I'm sure everyone here appreciates your knowledge.

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks, @Shirley-D!

I should also point out that we use some chemistry words really loosely in casual conversation. I think that is why essential OILS and soap making OILS are often thought to be similar things even though they're not. If you look at how certain words are used in the chemistry field, they often have a more specific, narrow meaning.

For example, we often use the word "oils" to mean both solid and liquid fats.

When calculating a soap recipe, "lye discount" is often used to mean the same thing as "superfat", but mathematically they're not the same.

The word "lye" is often assumed by soap makers to mean only NaOH whether it's in solid or liquid form. Historically "lye" has been used to mean any alkali (NaOH, KOH, etc.) that's been dissolved into liquid form.

So it's good to know if we're having a technical discussion where words should be used in their technical context or a casual convo where words can be used more loosely. Here on SMF, people get tangled up with this a lot.

 

[NcDon]

This is my new fresh batch of soap. A blend of five oils along with a blend of three EOs. Everything looks good. These are the numbers. Now, 36-48 hours waiting time...

The soap is still warm. The final gel phase. I gently fingered the bar a bit to see what happens. Nothing. No skin irritation. Saponification works quickly.

 

[NcDon]

18 hours after the trace point of no return. Ingredients: a blend of three EOs, 3.3% ppo (Base note: Santal Amyris. Heart note: Mandarin. Top note: Lavender). Citric Acid 1%, Panthenol 1%, Sodium Lactate 1%. I applied many of the practical tips from this forum and I thank the experienced colleagues who took the time to teach us the beginners how to make quality soap.

 

[VikingChick]

Very nice

 

[BWt]

@NcDon lovely soap. Do you cut your soaps with a wire or a knife?

 

[NcDon]

Very nice

Thanks.

@NcDon lovely soap. Do you cut your soaps with a wire or a knife?

Thanks. I cut the soap with a guilotine. I didn't wait 24 hours so it wouldn't harden too much. I cut after 18 hours and it worked like clockwork.

 

[Savage Daughter]

I wanted to point this out:

Although essential oils do NOT saponify, SOME essential oils ARE in an oil base, which DOES saponify.

EXAMPLE: I have several essential oils which are fairly costly for me to buy, hence I buy them pre-diluted at various strengths / rates, such as:

• honeysuckle attar diluted at 5% in a jojoba oil base
• rose essential oils of various different types in a jojoba base
• neroli diluted at 3% in a jojoba base
• jasmine at a 10% dilution rate in a jojoba base
• and so on

I use most in soaps, usually for myself because of the cost, but some which I do use for soaps I sell at a higher price.

That jojoba oil base DOES saponify to some extent (I have not looked into what extent because it's not something I am concerned about), although it is technically a liquid wax. So you do end up with a larger amount of superfat when using these 'types' of essential oils - pre-diluted. How much? I don't know because I haven't bothered to calculate how much of an extra superfat this additional oil adds to my batch. Some people do & prefer a very precise number.

Personally, I don't worry about it & also don't recalculate my lye ratio to take this into account, even though I superfat at 5%. I have heard other soap makers say the same who don't seem to have any issue with this, even when adding a small amount of extra oil to disperse / macerate their colourants before adding to a batch, which I also do with many colourants.

You kinda have to do your own experiments, come to your own conclusions & develop your own preferences with some of this stuff.