Stick blender vs whisk/spoon/spatula

[Ale]

Hi everyone, I've come here again after my first real fail in making a hot process batch of soap. I wanted to test lemon juice in soap so I prepared a small amount of olive oil, lard and juice, weighed my lye and mixed them together as usual. I thought everything was fine but after few minutes I noticed my lye was separating from the oils. I blended it again but it separated a second time... Results: I had to throw away my batch.

Anyway, I've read a bit about stick blender and I've understood that I definitely was using it in the wrong way. I used to blend nearly continuosly until I reached trace, with some interruptions only to let the motor rest. While I see that the right way is to use it just for 2-5 seconds and then stir with a spoon/spatula or a whisk for a minute or more. Then stick blend for others 2-5 seconds and so on. Am i right?

Well, at this point I'm wondering if stick blender is really necessary, I mean, do those few seconds make things considerably easier/faster? If I have to hand stir anyway, wouldn't it be nearly the same thing to only use a whisk for the same amount of time? I read some others threads and it seems to me that it's more an issue of "personal taste" than of a real difference in time/difficulty. Am I missing something?

 

[Rsapienza]

I believe it all comes down to recipe, batch size, preference and power of the stick blender. For a small batch, you may only need a few seconds bursts with stirring, as opposed to the same recipe on a much larger scale. Some recipes trace a lot faster than others where whisking may bring on trace in a few minutes. I do think those few seconds are worth it with most recipes; as opposed to hand stirring which would take way more than a few seconds.I, personally stir with my stick blender after bursting it a couple of seconds. I've never stick blended long enough to have to give my motor a rest. Some people enjoy the whole process and prefer to hand stir.
So, no, you're not missing anything. Do what works for you

 

[DeeAnna]

Did you use lemon juice as a total replacement for the water? If so, it's entirely likely your batch failed due to the citric acid in the juice reacting with the sodium hydroxide.

"...If I have to hand stir anyway, wouldn't it be nearly the same thing to only use a whisk for the same amount of time? ..."

Stick blending is a high intensity mixing process -- much more intense than a whisk. Stick blending breaks the fat and lye solution into tiny droplets and mixes these droplets together so the fat and lye can react more easily and quickly. You will have to whisk for a longer time to get the same results.

There are recipes that don't benefit as much from stick blending because there are other factors causing the batter to trace in a reasonable time - things like higher temperature, higher lye concentration, the specific fats used, accelerants, etc.

Given enough patience and effort, any batch of soap will come to trace eventually with only hand stirring or whisking, so hand stir if you are so inclined. If you're hand stirring or whisking for too many minutes and your arm is getting tired, however, maybe a whir or two with the stick blender will be helpful.

 

[AliOop]

Regarding the stick blender, how you use that tends to be different in hot process and cold process.

In CP, the stickblender is used sparingly to keep the batter fluid (either at emulsion or light trace, usually). When people talk about short bursts of blending, followed by stirring, they are almost always referring to CP soap-making.

In HP, that isn't an issue because you are cooking the soap with external heat to hasten the saponification process. That means the soap is going to get thick no matter how much or how little you use the stickblender. So when I HP, I stick blend until the batter is pretty thick, just to hasten the process. If I want to make the batter more fluid again after the cook, I reserve some of the liquid, and/or add warmed yogurt, sodium lactate, micas dispersed in hot sugar water, etc.

I say all that because you mentioned that this was an HP batch. Thus, what you did or didn't do with your stick blender wasn't likely to be the issue. I agree with @DeeAnna that the lemon juice was probably the cause of the batch failure, because you needed to add extra lye to compensate for the acid in the lemon juice.

 

[Kathymzr]

Yesterday I made an 18 oz batch and decided to try just hand blending. Took about 15 minutes. Worked very well and I was able to get perfectly pouring batter. I think I agree that when a stick blender gets the oils moving there is a much longer time after stopping where blending continues. Also I was doing CP at over 90 degrees because it was very hot outside here in Arizona! Today the soap is just fine! I was even able to let the hard oils sit out and melt. Both lye and oils came to meet at outside air temp. Just tried it for fun!

 

[Ale]

Did you use lemon juice as a total replacement for the water? If so, it's entirely likely your batch failed due to the citric acid in the juice reacting with the sodium hydroxide.

Yes, I used the lemon juice in replacement of the water but I calculated the extra lye needed to react with the citric acid. I could have made a mistake in this calculation but I'm more convinced that the problem was in the blending phase.

In HP, that isn't an issue because you are cooking the soap with external heat to hasten the saponification process. That means the soap is going to get thick no matter how much or how little you use the stickblender. So when I HP, I stick blend until the batter is pretty thick, just to hasten the process.

So you're saying that HP batches should be stick blended more then in CP? This could be why mine separated, I only blended it until a light trace... Even though I don't understand why should this be true, seeing that, as you said, during the cooking time the batter should become thicker and less prone to separating

I've just realized that I didn't mention it was just a little batch of about 200 g of fats. Only a first experiment with lemon juice

 

[GemstonePony]

What temperature were you hot-processing at? And what type of thermometer were you using?

 

[Ale]

What temperature were you hot-processing at? And what type of thermometer were you using?

ehm, difficult to say... I used the double boiler method, which I think should keep the temperature around 90°c, but I didn't measured it indeed. I thought that temperature was not so important in HP, wrong? I mean, I usually check and stir my batter every 10 minutes until it's fully gelled, and using the double boiler, temperature should be every time the same. More or less at least

Another question, I used a 28% lye concentration (2.57 water:lye ratio). Searching online I found it as a good and average concentration for HP; indeed I couldn't find many others suggested values for HP. So what I'm thinking is: is it possible to reduce a tiny bit the amount of water to reduce the probability of separation, without causing other problems due to the cooking of the batter? Maybe I could/should try 30%? Thanks

 

[DeeAnna]

So you're saying that HP batches should be stick blended more then in CP?...

Soap made with an HP method don't HAVE to be stick blended more, but most people want HP soap to thicken up and saponify quickly and stick blending gets you there quicker. There's no benefit when making HP soap to keeping the batter at a liquidy, slow moving state like most people want when doing CP.

As far as the lye concentration, I've made HP soap using anywhere 25% to 33% lye concentration. A 25% concentration is what most people use. They all work fine, but it's harder for the soap to remain fluid with less water-based liquid.

You're drawing a lot of conclusions based on a single experience with an unusual recipe. I think you're trying to blame your problems on issues that don't normally cause problems like this. Slow down a bit and try the hot process method again, but this time make the soap using a "normal" recipe. In other words, leave the lemon juice out of the equation and see what happens.

 

[AliOop]

Everything @DeeAnna said!

 

[TheGecko]

I was even able to let the hard oils sit out and melt. Both lye and oils came to meet at outside air temp. Just tried it for fun!

Ah...the advantages of living in Arizona. I used to make Sun Tea in about an hour. By the time I got the last on the laundry on the line, the first was dry and ready to be taken off. And no worries that I forgot to set something out for supper...half hour outside and steaks were ready for the grill.

 

[Ale]

Soap made with an HP method don't HAVE to be stick blended more, but most people want HP soap to thicken up and saponify quickly and stick blending gets you there quicker. There's no benefit when making HP soap to keeping the batter at a liquidy, slow moving state like most people want when doing CP.

As far as the lye concentration, I've made HP soap using anywhere 25% to 33% lye concentration. A 25% concentration is what most people use. They all work fine, but it's harder for the soap to remain fluid with less water-based liquid.

You're drawing a lot of conclusions based on a single experience with an unusual recipe. I think you're trying to blame your problems on issues that don't normally cause problems like this. Slow down a bit and try the hot process method again, but this time make the soap using a "normal" recipe. In other words, leave the lemon juice out of the equation and see what happens.

Ok, maybe you're right. I like to experiment a lot and even try "unusual" ways for doing things just to see what works and what don't. When something goes wrong I like to understand why it happened and so I make several hypothesis which sometimes lead to further experiments and sometimes are just discarded after some "researches" or advices. I'll do what you suggest. I'll try HP again with a more refined recipe and see if I'have the same troubles again.
Thank you

 

[AliOop]

@Ale oh yes, experimenting with soap recipes is part of the fun! While I do like experimenting, I don't like wasting materials. I often use the Search box on this forum to find out more about a new ingredient or process before I try it. So much wisdom here!

 

[Ale]

@Ale oh yes, experimenting with soap recipes is part of the fun! While I do like experimenting, I don't like wasting materials. I often use the Search box on this forum to find out more about a new ingredient or process before I try it. So much wisdom here!

Too much wisdom! I use the Searc box too, the problem is choosing which of the several tips seems more interesting for me to follow! And regarding not wasting material I agree, that's why I kept this recipe very small and "simple". O was just interested in seeing how lemon juice works and affect shelf-life. But now I think that @DeeAnna it's right. Using a standard recipe would make simpler and more "meaningful" the experiment (if I can say so...)

 

[Loran]

Ah...the advantages of living in Arizona. I used to make Sun Tea in about an hour. By the time I got the last on the laundry on the line, the first was dry and ready to be taken off. And no worries that I forgot to set something out for supper...half hour outside and steaks were ready for the grill.

When I lived there I made jerky off the back patio. Made a screened in rack to protect from the birds and insects, turned out pretty good! Don’t miss them days at all. NOONE could pay me enough to live in the valley again. Too hot!!!

 

[TheGecko]

When I lived there I made jerky off the back patio. Made a screened in rack to protect from the birds and insects, turned out pretty good! Needless to say NOONE could pay me enough to live in the valley again. Too hot!!!

I can deal with the heat better than I can with the damp of the Pacific Northwest. My hands have already started aching and we haven't had that much rain.

I loved living in Phoenix, but I couldn't go back to where I used to live...it's much too congested. I used to live just north of Bell Road and 32nd Street and there wasn't much between Union and Carefree/Cave Creek except the desert. Now it's all housing and this massive 'big box' mega mall at the 101. Spent a lot of time up on the Rim fishing...would relocate there.

 

[Arimara]

I've just realized that I didn't mention it was just a little batch of about 200 g of fats. Only a first experiment with lemon juice

300g should be the absolute minimum for any soaper to use if you're going for small batches (I'm aware it's not a rule). Anything smaller, especially in absense of an accurate scale that can weigh lye to the hundreths, is asking for trouble, especially for an experiment like this. It would have been a better idea to make a 500g batch where you could have prepped everthing and measured out the exact amount you wanted to reserve for the lemon juice.

Side question- why lemon juice? Citric acid is much more consistent and at least you would know EXACTLY how much of that is in the recipe. Citric acid in lemons vary from lemon to lemon so there is no telling how much citric acid you had in your recipe to begin with since you used lemon juic as a water replacement.

 

[Loran]

I can deal with the heat better than I can with the damp of the Pacific Northwest. My hands have already started aching and we haven't had that much rain.

I loved living in Phoenix, but I couldn't go back to where I used to live...it's much too congested. I used to live just north of Bell Road and 32nd Street and there wasn't much between Union and Carefree/Cave Creek except the desert. Now it's all housing and this massive 'big box' mega mall at the 101. Spent a lot of time up on the Rim fishing...would relocate there.

No way!!!! If you go past the rim, past Heber, to the little town of Snowflake, that’s where I was born and raised! Small world I tell ya! I love it up the rim, but there’s just no work up there, that’s why I went to the valley. I did enjoy Queen Creek, but it’s blown up since them days. I like Apache Junction, minus the trailer trash and meth heads hiking Superstition Mountains was my favorite past time, I recommend you go if you haven’t. Sorry to get off subject, my bad! I’ve read that mixing by hand can take upwards of 30+ minutes to get to trace, I have never tried it before. I would like to one of these batches just for the experience.

 

[Ale]

300g should be the absolute minimum for any soaper to use if you're going for small batches (I'm aware it's not a rule). Anything smaller, especially in absense of an accurate scale that can weigh lye to the hundreths, is asking for trouble, especially for an experiment like this. It would have been a better idea to make a 500g batch where you could have prepped everthing and measured out the exact amount you wanted to reserve for the lemon juice.

Side question- why lemon juice? Citric acid is much more consistent and at least you would know EXACTLY how much of that is in the recipe. Citric acid in lemons vary from lemon to lemon so there is no telling how much citric acid you had in your recipe to begin with since you used lemon juic as a water replacement.

Indeed, I do have a precision scale for lye which wheighs the hundreth of grams, so I never thought of the loss of precision related to very small batches.
I know that lemon juice can be quite variable in its citric acid content, but the average amount is quite low so I thought that even if I couldn't had a really precise measurement of the total citric acid, it wouldn't have been a big issue. I mean, it should only change a tiny bit the superfat percentage

 

[TheGecko]

No way!!!! If you go past the rim, past Heber, to the little town of Snowflake, that’s where I was born and raised! Small world I tell ya! I love it up the rim, but there’s just no work up there, that’s why I went to the valley. I did enjoy Queen Creek, but it’s blown up since them days. I like Apache Junction, minus the trailer trash and meth heads hiking Superstition Mountains was my favorite past time, I recommend you go if you haven’t. Sorry to get off subject, my bad! I’ve read that mixing by hand can take upwards of 30+ minutes to get to trace, I have never tried it before. I would like to one of these batches just for the experience.

Queen Creek was ruined when Intel moved in. All those generational dairy farmers forced to leave because the new folks moving in didn't like the smell of cows.

I should have bought in AJ while it was still BFE...land was super cheap.

I've been to Snowflake...well at least the courthouse. LOL My ex-fiance's Mom and Step-Dad had a 'cabin' in Heber. Well...it was a cabin when they bought it, but then spent a lot of time and money fixing it up so it would be their retirement home. Did a LOT of fishing at Woods Canyon...my favorite lake.

As for hand-stirring, it depends on your recipe, temperature and size of batter. And a good whisk.