Soy Wax Users

[Nanette]

That purple one (daphne scented) I gave to a friend to try (after I had sampled it myself and was very happy with the texture and found it to be quite creamy and soft feeling) and she LOVED it. She said she doesn't usually like bar soap because she has dry skin and it usually makes it worse. However she said this left her hands feeling quite moisturised and soft.

Recipe (remember I have been dubbed Princess Poly-Oil by @Dean):
Apricot Kernel Oil: 15%
Babassu Oil: 10%
Castor Oil: 10%
Coconut Oil: 15%
Olive Oil: 20%
Shea Butter: 10%
Soy Wax (415): 20%

Lye Conc: 30%
Super Fat: 5%

I keep coming back to the purple tie dye bars...they are really lovely!

 

[earlene]

I think 415 is fine. I kind of like that it boosts lins a little bit. Plus, its so darn cheap. Its the cheapest oil in my recipe. The more SW the better!

Now if we can only get the calc owners to add 415 to their calcs so we won't have do the math to figure out the true soap properties and acids...

Yes, that would be nice. But I did sort of want to try it to see if there's a noticeable difference. However, with the cost being so prohibitive, I will likely never know.

 

[Andrew]

I think 415 is fine. I kind of like that it boosts lins a little bit. Plus, its so darn cheap. Its the cheapest oil in my recipe. The more SW the better!

Now if we can only get the calc owners to add 415 to their calcs so we won't have do the math to figure out the true soap properties and acids...

soapee's calculator has soy wax at 27% hydrogenated. that is pretty close to 415's 30% if i remember correctly

 

[Dean]

soapee's calculator has soy wax at 27% hydrogenated. that is pretty close to 415's 30% if i remember correctly

27 hydro is a shortening. 415 is no shortening. I would not want to eat a 415 SW cookie or make a candle made out of shortening. I don’t even think 27 is avail anymore. Prob got discontinued when the food industry transitioned to palm.

 

[Andrew]

27 hydro is a shortening. 415 is no shortening. I would not want to eat a 415 SW cookie or make a candle made out of shortening. I don’t even think 27 is avail anymore. Prob got discontinued when the food industry transitioned to palm.

I don't know what calculator you are using, but I recommend you switch to soapee. Attached is a screenshot showing fatty acid makeup of both criscos, partially hydrogenated soy, and soy wax. As you can see they are all quite different. 415 fits under 27% hydrogenated soy.

Am I the only person who has called Golden Brands and spoke to one of their USA reps about their products?

 

[Dean]

I don't know what calculator you are using, but I recommend you switch to soapee. Attached is a screenshot showing fatty acid makeup of both criscos, partially hydrogenated soy, and soy wax. As you can see they are all quite different. 415 fits under 27% hydrogenated soy.

Am I the only person who has called Golden Brands and spoke to one of their USA reps about their products?

I use soapee.

I respectfully disagree with u.... 27 and 415 are not the same. 27 is a shortening for commercial baking. It is harder than crisco and comes in a block that can be cut...not scooped. I highly doubt 415 can be cut after its been melted, poured into a block mold and cooled.

 

[earlene]

That is interesting. In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/

That is not the case anymore. So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find. But then I have never looked for it before.

That 2008 link was before my time as a soapmaker and I never particularly noticed it as a food product, so have no tangible recollection of it. But I do know Sam's Club, and if they sold it as a shortening, it did not in any way resemble the consistency of GW 415. BUT, even if it didn't resemble the consistency, that is not to say the fatty acid profile is not the same. (could be, right?)

I wonder if it would make a difference in the soap if that line were used instead of the other other soy wax line? It doesn't make a discernible difference in the amount of lye, but quality numbers change quite a bit. I think it's worth and experiment if any 27% hydrogenated soy shortening could be found to use in comparison.

Dean, it (27% hyrdrogenated soy shortening) still available anywhere where you live? If it is, please share more information like, brand, etc. If I could find some, I'd be willing to do some experimental soap making comparisons. If we can't find any there is no way I can think of to do a comparison test, though.

So, Andrew? Are you a chemical engineer or similar?

 

[Dean]

That is interesting. In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/

That is not the case anymore. So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find. But then I have never looked for it before.

That 2008 link was before my time as a soapmaker and I never particularly noticed it as a food product, so have no tangible recollection of it. But I do know Sam's Club, and if they sold it as a shortening, it did not in any way resemble the consistency of GW 415. BUT, even if it didn't resemble the consistency, that is not to say the fatty acid profile is not the same. (could be, right?)

I wonder if it would make a difference in the soap if that line were used instead of the other other soy wax line? It doesn't make a discernible difference in the amount of lye, but quality numbers change quite a bit. I think it's worth and experiment if any 27% hydrogenated soy shortening could be found to use in comparison.

Dean, it (27% hyrdrogenated soy shortening) still available anywhere where you live? If it is, please share more information like, brand, etc. If I could find some, I'd be willing to do some experimental soap making comparisons. If we can't find any there is no way I can think of to do a comparison test, though.

So, Andrew? Are you a chemical engineer or similar?

This is the post in that thread that I'm referencing.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...co-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/#post-48567

I couldn't find 27. I highly doubt its available anymore. The industry has moved from trans fats to palm for health reasons. Of course palm is bad for health AND the environment.

Since neither 27 nor 100 hydro SW is readily available, I suggested on the SoapMakingFriend forum that 415 be included in the calc. No response. I guess that calc will use outdated oils too.

I think what is confusing people here is the hydrogenation percentage which is irrelevant to soap. Its the saturation that matters IMO. Andrew is assuming that since trans fat is not a true saturated fat, then it should be treated as unsaturated fat in soap. However, the calcs are treating trans fats as saturated fats, which they should . Trans fats are solid like saturated fat. That's the point of hydrogenation. My math says 415 is 84% saturated which why its behaving so much like 100% hydro SW not 27 hydro SO aka shortening which has a much lower saturation.

That Baker's Choice stuff is like a vegan butter replacement. It can be sliced and rolled into layers of dough to make products like croissants. You can't make a croissant out of candle wax anymore than you can make a croissant out of pure cocoa butter. Its too hard.

BTW: The reason I'm not letting this go, is I don't want new SW users to be turned off to the product because they received misinformation here. I'm also hoping someone will validate (or invalidate) my calculations but our mathy/sciencey soapers probably aren't SW users. If I'm wrong I'll admit it...but I don't think I am.

 

[Steve85569]

From the limited amount of research that I have been able to do regarding soy wax and MSDS for actual ingredients it appears that ALL soy wax contains some level of partially or non hydrogenated oil. OMG ! NOT

Soy bean oil will still be made into soap and the SAP values are close enough that unless I am making a 5 ton batch the soap will be safe to use. The change in properties of the finished soap will either be what I am looking for or I'll try a different blend. There are currently 3 blends curing one even used 444 ( which by the way uses the same MSDS as 415).

Seems to me to be much ado about very little if not nothing.
So far I like the hardness SW adds but I am looking for a blend that produces a mild enough soap that my old hide will agree.

Soap on!!

 

[Andrew]

I use soapee.

I respectfully disagree with u.... 27 and 415 are not the same. 27 is a shortening for commercial baking. It is harder than crisco and comes in a block that can be cut...not scooped. I highly doubt 415 can be cut after its been melted, poured into a block mold and cooled.

I use quite a bit of soy wax for my business and have fatty acid break downs of most of the soy waxes commonly used for soap making. Here is the main issue with using candle wax in soap: you do not know the exact fatty acid make up and have to approximate it in a calculator. Whatever you use in the calculator, the saponification value is approximately 192.

Going off of my phone calls with Golden Brands reps, I can definitely can say that 415 is very close to the fatty acid make up of 27% hydrogenated oil with a slightly higher hydrogenation % to about 30 (previously stated above). Is it exact? no. Is it the closest option in a lye calculator? yes. The only important factor is that the two have a similar fatty acid make up so your calculator will be as accurate as possible for the different fatty acid percentages. The intended use is irrelevant. In fact, soy wax is manufactured for candles, food, and industry (mainly lubricants) so you will of course have food shortening in the calculator.

In addition, many candle waxes have been interesterified so the melting point and how hard the material is does NOT reflect the fatty acids. So you can buy multiple waxes with different melting points that make different candles, that make the chemically same soap.

 

[lenarenee]

That is interesting. In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/

That is not the case anymore. So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find. But then I have never looked for it before.

Dean, it (27% hyrdrogenated soy shortening) still available anywhere where you live? If it is, please share more information like, brand, etc. If I could find some, I'd be willing to do some experimental soap making comparisons. If we can't find any there is no way I can think of to do a comparison test, though.

I believe it's (as of 2017) illegal to product hydrogenated soy (fats) for human consumption in the US. It's why the candle industry had such a problem recently with very inconsistent wax batches, entire lines of wax disappearing and being replaced by strange new versions. Last time I heard, at least one manufacturer was producing hydrogenated non-food grade soy.

 

[Dean]

I use quite a bit of soy wax for my business and have fatty acid break downs of most of the soy waxes commonly used for soap making. Here is the main issue with using candle wax in soap: you do not know the exact fatty acid make up and have to approximate it in a calculator. Whatever you use in the calculator, the saponification value is approximately 192.

Going off of my phone calls with Golden Brands reps, I can definitely can say that 415 is very close to the fatty acid make up of 27% hydrogenated oil with a slightly higher hydrogenation % to about 30 (previously stated above). Is it exact? no. Is it the closest option in a lye calculator? yes. The only important factor is that the two have a similar fatty acid make up so your calculator will be as accurate as possible for the different fatty acid percentages. The intended use is irrelevant. In fact, soy wax is manufactured for candles, food, and industry (mainly lubricants) so you will of course have food shortening in the calculator.

In addition, many candle waxes have been interesterified so the melting point and how hard the material is does NOT reflect the fatty acids. So you can buy multiple waxes with different melting points that make different candles, that make the chemically same soap.

Crisco and 27 have almost identical hardness properties 24-25. 27 is soft like shortening therefore is not a hard soy wax, which 415 is.

Please post Golden Brand's document that identifies 415's fatty acid profile.

That is interesting. In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/

That is not the case anymore. So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find. But then I have never looked for it before.

That 2008 link was before my time as a soapmaker and I never particularly noticed it as a food product, so have no tangible recollection of it. But I do know Sam's Club, and if they sold it as a shortening, it did not in any way resemble the consistency of GW 415. BUT, even if it didn't resemble the consistency, that is not to say the fatty acid profile is not the same. (could be, right?)

I wonder if it would make a difference in the soap if that line were used instead of the other other soy wax line? It doesn't make a discernible difference in the amount of lye, but quality numbers change quite a bit. I think it's worth and experiment if any 27% hydrogenated soy shortening could be found to use in comparison.

Dean, it (27% hyrdrogenated soy shortening) still available anywhere where you live? If it is, please share more information like, brand, etc. If I could find some, I'd be willing to do some experimental soap making comparisons. If we can't find any there is no way I can think of to do a comparison test, though.

So, Andrew? Are you a chemical engineer or similar?

I found this...

https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Soybean-Oil-(hydrogenated).html

I've requested details.

 

[earlene]

Thank

I found this...

https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Soybean-Oil-(hydrogenated).html

I've requested details.

Thank you, Dean. Too bad the MMS lye calculator doesn't include fatty acid information! They only list one soybean wax and the link on the calculator doesn't actually take you to that product, although it is on the page it does take you to. So is it soy wax or not? Awaiting to hear their reply with details on this product! Is it fully hydrogenated or not, etc.

Anyway I heard back from Dave at Chemol and he said they don't sell for distribution, but to look into products by Cargill or AAK. I haven't looked yet. Not sure who AAK even is. Just letters to me.

Edit: I sent a request for more info from Cargill and am currently purusing AAK's website. This page is interesting: https://aak.com/search/?q=hydrogenated+soy+wax

So I sent a message to AAK as well. It looks like they are a Co-Development company for Golden Wax.

 

[Dean]

Thank



Thank you, Dean. Too bad the MMS lye calculator doesn't include fatty acid information! They only list one soybean wax and the link on the calculator doesn't actually take you to that product, although it is on the page it does take you to. So is it soy wax or not? Awaiting to hear their reply with details on this product! Is it fully hydrogenated or not, etc.

I noticed that too. I only asked the company for the saturation and hydrogenation percentages.

 

[earlene]

Incidentally, for Dawni: I read that AAK (and also Cargill) are expanding manufacturing to the Phillipines, so maybe you might be able to find a souce for GW 415 sooner rather than later.

 

[Andrew]

Crisco and 27 have almost identical hardness properties 24-25. 27 is soft like shortening therefore is not a hard soy wax, which 415 is.

Please post Golden Brand's document that identifies 415's fatty acid profile.

I noticed that too. I only asked the company for the saturation and hydrogenation percentages.

It is clear to me at this point that you just want to argue. I, however, have done my homework and have used all of these waxes in test batches. The most important factor for using soy wax (or any oil) is the SAP value which does not change in the hydrogenation process. Although I am assuming your comments really are about linoleic%, I am unsure.

Please read my previous comments about approximation and interestification as that was my entire point about the differences in hardness properties in waxes. This is apparently something you skipped over.

% hydrogenation and fatty acid make up are proprietary information and AAK will not be willing tell you. They may break it down by saturated/monosaturated/etc makeup, but they will not give you more information than I already have.

I would also advise against using shortening for the food industry since it commonly has citric acid which messes with lye discount %. Although Jedwards International knows how much may be in their butters, you will have difficulty getting that information from a food supplier.

 

[earlene]

I noticed that too. I only asked the company for the saturation and hydrogenation percentages.

I asked for more. I promise to share here, what they share with me.

Andrew, thank you for sharing what you have shared. I appreciate that. I notice you seem to have a successful soapmaking business. You certainly do and have put a lot of time and effort into the research. Not all of us here are as chemically inclined as you and some of the others may be. Not all of us can or are inclined to call all our vendors. And not all of us are inclined toward a soap making business. But I believe all of us are inclined toward making the best soap possible given our circumstances.

Although I don't make a lot of soap with shortening made for the food industry, I have done and so do many soap makers. Some like it as an ingredient, some are indifferent, and some don't like it. But it's really quite common as an ingredient. Some shortenings do contain citric acid, some contain BHT, but since both can be used in soap anyway, for the smaller batches often made by home-made soapmakers, I don't think the amount is such that it creates any huge concern. After all, the ranges given for lye purity and saponification values and the SF factored in via the lye calculators create a certain buffer as well, depending on how much we manipulate those values ourselves. But for the commercial and artisan soapmakers who may prefer more accuracy, it may because it is presents an unknown variable.

Still, I am interested in what you have learned about the fatty acid profiles of GW 415. I did request that information from AAK myself just now and do hope they share that information with me. If they do, I will post it here, of course, because why should every soapmaker have to contact their suppliers one at a time to get the same information? I think it would be nice if they just provided it to be readily accessible online, but they don't all do that. I don't accept the argument that it's proprietary. If they suggest it be used in soap or sell it for the purpose of being used in making soap, the pertinent information should be provided. So people asking here certainly seems reasonable and sharing in the interest of sharing information to be helpful is part of what we do here at SMF.

 

[Dean]

It is clear to me at this point that you just want to argue. I, however, have done my homework and have used all of these waxes in test batches. The most important factor for using soy wax (or any oil) is the SAP value which does not change in the hydrogenation process. Although I am assuming your comments really are about linoleic%, I am unsure.

Please read my previous comments about approximation and interestification as that was my entire point about the differences in hardness properties in waxes. This is apparently something you skipped over.

% hydrogenation and fatty acid make up are proprietary information and AAK will not be willing tell you. They may break it down by saturated/monosaturated/etc makeup, but they will not give you more information than I already have.

I would also advise against using shortening for the food industry since it commonly has citric acid which messes with lye discount %. Although Jedwards International knows how much may be in their butters, you will have difficulty getting that information from a food supplier.

You are correct that 415 SW is partially hydrogenated and you are correct about the similar SAP. However 415 and 27 do not have similar saturation, fatty acid profiles or soap properties.

If someone normally soaps with palm and the recipe has a hardness of 50 and they want to substitute 415 for palm and they use 27 hydro in the calc as you suggest, they can never get the calc to reflect a hardness of 50 because a 100% 27 hydro soap has a hardness of only 24. This may not be problem for a soaper who uses calcs just for lye, but its a problem for those that use the calcs as guides for recipe formulation.

 

[KiwiMoose]

If you all would care to go back to my original post when starting this thread - you will see that I didn't want to get into arguments. I know that online forums (I've been on a few different ones - not soap making ones) are prone to arguments as some individuals like to flaunt their knowledge and be king of the castle.
Hey - I'm just here to share soap-making questions with other soap makers. Whilst I am interested in the chemistry perspective to a degree ( enough for me to pursue the knowledge I need to make soap) I have no desire to go into intricate details and prove someone right or wrong.
I use 100% hydrogenated soy wax. I use an online soap calculator ( a couple of them in fact). I make soap, and it works! I make quite nice soap actually.
Whilst all this 'know-it-all' behaviour has been going on, we have possibly scared off a number of people who might have been interested in using soy wax and finding out how to soap with it. Now - they've been blown away by all this facts and figures stuff and have probably wandered off to the palm oil camp because people are not arguing over there.
We were all getting along reasonably swimmingly until a new member that I've never heard of before (granted, probably not as new as me, but definitely less active and well-known) comes in and starts spouting chemistry knowledge. I would thank you to take your 'need to be right' and 'I know more than you' attitude elsewhere.
A think a lesson for everyone is that it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it, that can cause disharmony.
Let's get back to soaping.

 

[Steve85569]

I'll just use soy wax for candles so I don't have to worry about not being highbrow enough.