Soy Wax Users

[KiwiMoose]

I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try. Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?

Ask me in 6 months or more
I usually use around 15%, but I'm still tweaking my 'ultimate' recipe, so it can vary. But at 15% that keeps the linoleic and linolenic combined at 10% so hopefully won't get to see any DOS.

Nope never used it simply because - well - it's soy and conjurs up so many negative thoughts.

However, I've been find using soaps with a small amount of soy oil in the past. And because Dean and someone else have been excited about it I would consider it if there was a really "clean" source.

I know I said I didn't want to enter into any debates, BUT....

I started to ponder the many comments and outright negativity towards SW by many on this site. It's interesting how we don't have that so much in New Zealand, but we do get it against Palm oil. I think it has all comes down to propaganda, for both types of oil.

Our propaganda in NZ is greatly focused against palm for deforestation issues, and also seemingly 'sustainable' sources still being exploitative of the land and workers thereof (search Guatemalan Palm Oil farmers exploitation).

Whereas I think in the USA there seems to be a lot of propaganda against soy - mainly from the dairy and or meat industry who want to stop the migration of consumers from animal products to soy products (search anti soy campaigns USA). Notwithstanding - I think we are all agreed that Monsanto's GMO and dirty tactics against the small farmers - accusing them of 'theft' because the farmers' organic soy was being cross pollinated with Monsanto's 'super soy' - is unacceptable.

Because we don't grow soy, or palm, in New Zealand - I guess the media feeds us with the stories most relevant to us, and palm being the closer geographically (main crops are in Asia) gets the main rap.

So all that said, I think there are reasons to use, or not to use, either of these oils depending on which facts or elaborations of facts ( or even outright lies in some cases) you choose to accept or ignore.

All I know is - in New Zealand, people WILL ask if the soap is palm free, because that is what they know to ask. No-one would bat an eyelid about soy. I'm guessing it's the same for soy in USA - people WILL ask if it is soy- free (or at least baulk at the idea of having soy in their soap) but not mind so much about palm.

Then of course - there is the difference between what people will eat, and what they will put on their body. I will eat soy, and so therefore when wanting to make a vegan soap, soy is my preference. I won't eat palm, so....won't use it in my soap either. And, you may have palm in a lot of your products in the USA, but we don't here to the extreme that you do, and certainly not if food is prepared from scratch, which is still fairly common in the NZ household, although less so in the last decade or so. It is rare that anyone would use a product such as your 'Crisco'. people simply don't use that kind of thing in cooking any more. We do have a similar product, but it's made with coconut oil, and it is certainly not a common household item (very hard to find in the supermarkets).

I'm not vegan, nor vegetarian. I love me bacon! But I don't want to make animal fat soaps. I have nothing against animal fat soaps. I'm sure they are lovely, and I don't doubt that they produce a good bar of soap. I just don't want to use it in my soap that I make.

Anyhoo - what a conundrum! I want to make vegan soap, and only vegan soap. If I want a hard bar and don't want to spend a fortune, I either make salt soaps only for the rest of my life, or I use either palm, or soy. I've chosen soy. many of you have chosen palm.

So let's go forth and make soap happily with our chosen 'politically incorrect', non-sustainable, questionably sustainable, genetically modified, Monsanto tainted, dairy/meat industry hate-campaigned OIL OF CHOICE.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

I have no clue on where to get soy wax, i would try it if i could. Well, i havent search for it either. That is one of the “basic oils” i havent tried yet.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I have no clue on where to get soy wax, i would try it if i could. Well, i havent search for it either. That is one of the “basic oils” i havent tried yet.

Can you order from the USA Alfa?

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

Can you order from the USA Alfa?

Probably, but i dont think that would be very cost effective. Shipping is the reason i dont order micas and FO’s from the US, its just waaaaay too expensive and to really make it worth it i would have to order a lot of product. Which would probably would come with customs. Nope.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Probably, but i dont think that would be very cost effective. Shipping is the reason i dont order micas and FO’s from the US, its just waaaaay too expensive and to really make it worth it i would have to order a lot of product. Which would probably would come with customs. Nope.

That's a shame. Next time I come to Mexico I'll bring you some
I've never been to DF though - I flew in to Guadalajara last time.

 

[Dean]

I think it depends on the othe

I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try. Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?

I think it depends on how much ur total lins are in ur recipie

I know I said I didn't want to enter into any debates, BUT....

I started to ponder the many comments and outright negativity towards SW by many on this site. It's interesting how we don't have that so much in New Zealand, but we do get it against Palm oil. I think it has all comes down to propaganda, for both types of oil.

Our propaganda in NZ is greatly focused against palm for deforestation issues, and also seemingly 'sustainable' sources still being exploitative of the land and workers thereof (search Guatemalan Palm Oil farmers exploitation).

Whereas I think in the USA there seems to be a lot of propaganda against soy - mainly from the dairy and or meat industry who want to stop the migration of consumers from animal products to soy products (search anti soy campaigns USA). Notwithstanding - I think we are all agreed that Monsanto's GMO and dirty tactics against the small farmers - accusing them of 'theft' because the farmers' organic soy was being cross pollinated with Monsanto's 'super soy' - is unacceptable.

Because we don't grow soy, or palm, in New Zealand - I guess the media feeds us with the stories most relevant to us, and palm being the closer geographically (main crops are in Asia) gets the main rap.

So all that said, I think there are reasons to use, or not to use, either of these oils depending on which facts or elaborations of facts ( or even outright lies in some cases) you choose to accept or ignore.

All I know is - in New Zealand, people WILL ask if the soap is palm free, because that is what they know to ask. No-one would bat an eyelid about soy. I'm guessing it's the same for soy in USA - people WILL ask if it is soy- free (or at least baulk at the idea of having soy in their soap) but not mind so much about palm.

Then of course - there is the difference between what people will eat, and what they will put on their body. I will eat soy, and so therefore when wanting to make a vegan soap, soy is my preference. I won't eat palm, so....won't use it in my soap either. And, you may have palm in a lot of your products in the USA, but we don't here to the extreme that you do, and certainly not if food is prepared from scratch, which is still fairly common in the NZ household, although less so in the last decade or so. It is rare that anyone would use a product such as your 'Crisco'. people simply don't use that kind of thing in cooking any more. We do have a similar product, but it's made with coconut oil, and it is certainly not a common household item (very hard to find in the supermarkets).

I'm not vegan, nor vegetarian. I love me bacon! But I don't want to make animal fat soaps. I have nothing against animal fat soaps. I'm sure they are lovely, and I don't doubt that they produce a good bar of soap. I just don't want to use it in my soap that I make.

Anyhoo - what a conundrum! I want to make vegan soap, and only vegan soap. If I want a hard bar and don't want to spend a fortune, I either make salt soaps only for the rest of my life, or I use either palm, or soy. I've chosen soy. many of you have chosen palm.

So let's go forth and make soap happily with our chosen 'politically incorrect', non-sustainable, questionably sustainable, genetically modified, Monsanto tainted, dairy/meat industry hate-campaigned OIL OF CHOICE.

I find ur thoughts on soy and propaganda from the USA meat and dairy industry interesting. I’ve noticed recently the dairy industry targeting plant based alternatives with neg mrktg campains. However I never connected neg mrktg to this new consumer belief that soy is BAD. But it does explain the “no soy” labels on products.

I’ve seen this twice before in my lifetime. First it was fat that was BAD around the 80s. Those studies were financed by the sugar industry who was getting bad press for causing heart disease. And how did process foods maintain flavor during the fat free trend? By Increasing SUGAR and salt! And guess what..people got fatter!

Now u see this trend with gluten (wheat). Guy Fieri (tool) did a “healthy” cooking show last week where a chef made deep fried donuts covered in sugar that were “healthy” cuz they were gluten free. Gluten isnt unhealthy unless u have celiac disease.

Thx Ms Moose for reminding us how mrktg affects our choices, health and the planet.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

That's a shame. Next time I come to Mexico I'll bring you some
I've never been to DF though - I flew in to Guadalajara last time.

Out of curiosity I googled where could i get it and found a place that sells only waxes, so i found bees wax, sooooper special bees wax, soy wax, rice wax, palm wax? Carnauba wax? Candelilla wax? I have no clue what that is, but i forsee a trip to the Zocalo in my future, they dont list prices but eh, we’ll see.

 

[Dean]

Some “waxes” are actually hydrogenated oil like soy. Candelillia is the vegan alt to bees wax grown in mex. Carnauba is a palm product.

 

[SaltedFig]

Hydrogenated oil "waxes" tend to work like tallow (beef fat) in soap - the hydrogenation process is used to convert the double bonds into single bonds by adding a hydrogen atom into the fatty acid - converting the "soft" oils into harder fats in the process.

True waxes (such as beeswax, Carnauba, Candelilla etc.) are naturally hard and tend to have a lot more unsaponifiables.

Rice bran wax is a true wax, but rice bran oil (and the wax) is generally extracted using chemical extraction (it is possible to buy it as an organic product, without the chemical extraction, but it is fiendishly expensive).

Soy wax is hydrogenated, palm wax is (or was originally) Carnauba wax, but there are also hydrogenated palm waxes, so expect that palm wax will be the hydrogenated version unless it specifically states that it is Carnauba/the natural wax (not the hydrogenated oil, which is much cheaper to produce).

You should be able to get Candelilla more easily/cheaper than I can - it is native to your country (lucky duck!).

 

[KiwiMoose]

I love the lather on this soap! It's very thick and creamy. It's the same recipe as the one I gave back there ^, with the addition of some desiccated coconut in the soap which i think is adding to the lather.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

Hydrogenated oil "waxes" tend to work like tallow (beef fat) in soap - the hydrogenation process is used to convert the double bonds into single bonds by adding a hydrogen atom into the fatty acid - converting the "soft" oils into harder fats in the process.

True waxes (such as beeswax, Carnauba, Candelilla etc.) are naturally hard and tend to have a lot more unsaponifiables.

Rice bran wax is a true wax, but rice bran oil (and the wax) is generally extracted using chemical extraction (it is possible to buy it as an organic product, without the chemical extraction, but it is fiendishly expensive).

Soy wax is hydrogenated, palm wax is (or was originally) Carnauba wax, but there are also hydrogenated palm waxes, so expect that palm wax will be the hydrogenated version unless it specifically states that it is Carnauba/the natural wax (not the hydrogenated oil, which is much cheaper to produce).

You should be able to get Candelilla more easily/cheaper than I can - it is native to your country (lucky duck!).

So what you are saying is.... GET THEM AND TRY THEM?! XD

They have both the “palm wax” and the “carnauba wax”. I should have known i could get them. This is a very VERY catholic country and candles are THE thing. This is a candle supplier store that is called “jesus something something”.


Are this waxes listed on soapcac? I am already thinking of making soap with them and i dont even have them yet!

 

[Chris_S]

Now u see this trend with gluten (wheat). Guy Fieri (tool) did a “healthy” cooking show last week where a chef made deep fried donuts covered in sugar that were “healthy” cuz they were gluten free. Gluten isnt unhealthy unless u have celiac disease.

Thx Ms Moose for reminding us how mrktg affects our choices, health and the planet.

Spot on Dean it makes me laugh that everyone who has jumped on the gluten free bandwagon because they seem to think its healthier. I understand that some people can be gluten intolerant too as well as people who have celiac dieses but Kitten Love did people do before all this gluten free stuff that companies make now.

@KiwiMoose very interesting post there and as someone else outside of the usa can see where you are coming from as an outsider regarding anti soy propaganda we have been getting more and more palm free ect foods but really i dont understand why we have so much convience meals i made a stir fry with quorn last week that took all of 10 minutes including prep and cook and a quorn curry that took about half an hour again from prep to cook i was eating it after half an hour and it was onwle the best curries iv ever made from scratch

So what you are saying is.... GET THEM AND TRY THEM?! XD

They have both the “palm wax” and the “carnauba wax”. I should have known i could get them. This is a very VERY catholic country and candles are THE thing. This is a candle supplier store that is called “jesus something something”.


Are this waxes listed on soapcac? I am already thinking of making soap with them and i dont even have them yet!

Almost certain iv see candulla wax or whatever its called on the forum soap calc not sure about palm wax never seen that but then again iv never looked for it. Iv heard of it but iv got about 35kg of soy wax so dont need any other types of wax

 

[KiwiMoose]

So what you are saying is.... GET THEM AND TRY THEM?! XD


Are this waxes listed on soapcac? I am already thinking of making soap with them and i dont even have them yet!

Yes, but be careful with the soy wax at least that you find one with no additives (in USA it’s GW415). Most of the candle waxes have additional ingredients that allow stability for candles.

 

[SaltedFig]

@Alfa_Lazcares Oh yes! Try real waxes in soap!

Some of them are in soapcalc - you'd have to look (beeswax is).

Because not much is needed, and true waxes don't tend to have a great deal of saponifiables, it wouldn't matter terribly if you didn't add any extra lye for them

 

[lenarenee]

Yes, but be careful with the soy wax at least that you find one with no additives (in USA it’s GW415). Most of the candle waxes have additional ingredients that allow stability for candles.

And I would even do some fact checking on that because the wax industry is still chaotic. Chandlers talk about how every single order of wax they get is different from the previous and they have to retest and often rewick.

 

[KimT2au]

Spot on Dean it makes me laugh that everyone who has jumped on the gluten free bandwagon because they seem to think its healthier. I understand that some people can be gluten intolerant too as well as people who have celiac dieses but Kitten Love did people do before all this gluten free stuff that companies make now.

I don't want to hijack this thread but thought I might just offer a slight insight into our situation, although be warned there are graphic poop descriptions to follow. My feeling is that gluten intolerance is the latest fad illness. Celiacs disease is a real condition and has been recognised for a number of years. For those that are truly gluten intolerant it is an awful complaint. As for what used to happen to people with intolerances and/or allergies in an earlier time I would say that as babies they did not thrive and may well have had a shorter life span (depending on how far back in history you wish to go.) As adults they would have been constantly ill and would have been considered sickly. Our own situation is a little different in that our 18 year old daughter has multiple food allergies which were diagnosed at 9 months of age by a paediatric allergist. She is allergic to wheat (note, that is wheat and not gluten), potato, barley, dairy, eggs and dogs. The Dr suggested we get rid of our dog but we pointed out we had the dog before we had the baby so that stopped that conversation there. We have found she can eat Spelt and Kamut flour due to their shorter protein chains. Anyway, I digress. From day 1 it was clear DD had a problem as she cried after eating (she was breast fed for 15 months) and developed eczema all over her body. She had to have clean sheets on her cot every day due to the amount of blood on the sheets from where her wounds had broken open and bled while she slept. Her poo (sorry to get graphic here) was something to behold as it was so dense that it was in balls and if they accidentally rolled off of a nappy they actually bounced! Our daughter was being 100% breast fed and our doctor just kept getting us to try cream after cream after cream and we spent an absolute fortune. One day we ended up seeing a different doctor who sent us to a paediatric allergist who changed our lives. He diagnosed DD's allergies and told me to remove those foods from my diet as she was receiving the proteins via the breast milk. I immediately changed my diet and it was like a miracle had happened. Within 24 hours all of the eczema on her body, except for one small patch on an ankle, had disappeared and at 9 months of age she finally smiled for the first time in her life, yep, there had been no smiles to that point which I am guessing is because she was in constant pain. 18 years ago trying to get any sort of food stuffs that fitted with her allergies was impossible but luckily I have always like to cook. I learned very early to read ingredient labels on absolutely everything.

Although DD is now 18 years old, she still has not outgrown her allergies and has them for life. If she eats things she should not she will break out in eczema within a matter of hours.

So, in answer to your question of what happened to people with intolerances and/or allergies (because they aren't the same thing) in an earlier time, I think we can look at my daughter's experience and say they simply did not thrive and, in a more extreme case and an earlier time period, would have died.

Enough of being a negative Nelly and back to the discussion of soap and all things soap related.

 

[MGM]

I'm not vegan, nor vegetarian. I love me bacon! But I don't want to make animal fat soaps. I have nothing against animal fat soaps. I'm sure they are lovely, and I don't doubt that they produce a good bar of soap. I just don't want to use it in my soap that I make.

Fascinating, Kiwi! I can understand a vegetarian's opposition to making/using lard or tallow in soaps, although Marie Rayma's anti-palm/pro-lard argument is VERY compelling (she's a vegetarian). If you eat meat, and acknowledge that lard/tallow makes a great bar of soap, why are you opposed to using a locally-sourced waste product and choose instead to use an imported product? Not challenging you; just wondering. The comments on Marie's site are pretty vociferous (if mis-informed), but this angle (meat eating soapmaker who goes to soy wax instead of lard) isn't represented.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use

Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes. Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace? I want to use that one.

I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though. It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole! Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.

 

[Chris_S]

I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use

Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes. Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace? I want to use that one.

I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though. It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole! Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.

I have a friend who is vegitarian and has been for longer than iv even been alive and i mentioned lard soap and he just said well i cant see why i couldnt try it i mean i wear leather shoes its no different to that

@KimT2au my sister had simular problems with my niece and allergies while breast feeding but they were lucky that they were very effective and quick at figuring out what was causing it and has had several allergy tests since to see if she has grown out of it. I agree with you about the people were just put down as being ill. But i also wonder how much the general poor diets of people and the methods used to grow crops ect is to blame for such illnesses and intolerances to certain foods. Look at bse that was brought on if im not mistaken by the diet of the cows that had been infected and ultimatly that diet is even if indirectly introduced into our diet. I dont know if your aware but there was a massive scandle few years ago in the uk where nearly all supermarkets were exposed to having sold food mostly ready meals with horse meat supplied from i have a feeling it was romania how much they were aware of im not sure but someone was fully aware and felt no guilt doing this which brings me back to questioning our general diets and what degree of cause this has. Im glad that ultimately you managed to sort out things with your daughter even if it did take some time and effort to get some action.

I do have one big question for you its why didnt mention that i wrote kitten love in the middle of the sentence? i had to read it a few times to try figure out how on earth that got there and why you didnt question its presence in that sentence?

 

[KimT2au]

I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use

Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes. Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace? I want to use that one.

I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though. It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole! Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.

Ummmm, I think lard is the slowest to trace. Sorry.