Some improvement on my recipe is needed

[linne1gi]

Wow, you just dropped a whole lot of knowledge I didn't even know I needed! Thank you! Now I'm going through my recipes and I see that the ones with the most problematic glycerin rivers had fairly low INS values.

The greatest reducer of glycerin rivers is to water discount. That means you have too much water in your recipe. When the water is too high, the soap heats up in some places and causes uneven saponification causing glycerin rivers, sometimes the soap will volcano.

 

[DeeAnna]

The greatest reducer of glycerin rivers is to water discount. That means you have too much water in your recipe. When the water is too high, the soap heats up in some places and causes uneven saponification causing glycerin rivers, sometimes the soap will volcano.

It is true that using less water will reduce the chance of "glycerin" rivers. Overheating and uneven saponification aren't the reasons why rivers form.

Soap is made of many different kinds of soap molecules. Oleic, stearic, and palmitic soap molecules are usually the main types found in many soaps, although the composition of any given soap depends on the fats used to make it. Some of theses soap molecules crystallize (solidify) at higher temperatures and others solidify at lower temperatures. This progressive crystallization process always happens in soap, but sometimes we humans see the results of crystallization as obvious crackling or rivers, and sometimes the crystals aren't visible.

When a batch of soap gels (turns into a soft semi-liquid paste) and then cools, the palmitic and stearic soap molecules crystallize first. The liquid oleic soap molecules flow out and away from the solid bits of stearic and palmitic soap.

If this process of crystallization and separation is allowed to happen slowly enough, the opaque parts and translucent parts of the soap become large enough so they are visible to the naked eye as crackles and rivers. If the process happens faster, the different crystals remain very small and pretty much invisible to our eyes.

The process of crystallization and separation happens often in many areas of life.

Here's an example -- Have you ever put a can of soda pop in the freezer and forgot about it? If you take a close look at the frozen soda before you clean up the mess, you'll see translucent ice crystals floating in a thick syrup of dark, sweet soda syrup. If you could cool the soda syrup even colder, the syrup would also eventually freeze. The result would be a mixture of clear ice crystals surrounded by frozen syrup. This is the soda pop version of "glycerin rivers" in soap.

Another example is making fudge or taffy. If you do not stir fudge long enough or knead taffy properly, the finished candy will have large gritty sugar crystals in it. If you do things right, the sugar crystals remain tiny and the candy stays smooth, pliable, and silky.

More: Soapy Stuff: Crackling, streaking, and mottling

 

[linne1gi]

It is true that using less water will reduce the chance of "glycerin" rivers. Overheating and uneven saponification aren't the reasons why rivers form.

Soap is made of many different kinds of soap molecules. Oleic, stearic, and palmitic soap molecules are usually the main types found in many soaps, although the composition of any given soap depends on the fats used to make it. Some of theses soap molecules crystallize (solidify) at higher temperatures and others solidify at lower temperatures. This progressive crystallization process always happens in soap, but sometimes we humans see the results of crystallization as obvious crackling or rivers, and sometimes the crystals aren't visible.

When a batch of soap gels (turns into a soft semi-liquid paste) and then cools, the palmitic and stearic soap molecules crystallize first. The liquid oleic soap molecules flow out and away from the solid bits of stearic and palmitic soap.

If this process of crystallization and separation is allowed to happen slowly enough, the opaque parts and translucent parts of the soap become large enough so they are visible to the naked eye as crackles and rivers. If the process happens faster, the different crystals remain very small and pretty much invisible to our eyes.

The process of crystallization and separation happens often in many areas of life.

Here's an example -- Have you ever put a can of soda pop in the freezer and forgot about it? If you take a close look at the frozen soda before you clean up the mess, you'll see translucent ice crystals floating in a thick syrup of dark, sweet soda syrup. If you could cool the soda syrup even colder, the syrup would also eventually freeze. The result would be a mixture of clear ice crystals surrounded by frozen syrup. This is the soda pop version of "glycerin rivers" in soap.

Another example is making fudge or taffy. If you do not stir fudge long enough or knead taffy properly, the finished candy will have large gritty sugar crystals in it. If you do things right, the sugar crystals remain tiny and the candy stays smooth, pliable, and silky.

More: Soapy Stuff: Crackling, streaking, and mottling

Dr. Kevin Dunn shows in Scientific Soapmaking that a high water content causes the soap to enter gel phase at a lower temp than a low water soap. Saponification is slower in a high water soap than in a low water soap and a high water soap stays in gel phase longer, andmoves out of gel phase more slowly than a low water soap.

 

[penelopejane]

Hello everyone!

I would like to ask some advice about the recipe I've used for my latest batch of soap.
After two weeks of waiting I still had a lot of trouble getting it out of the mold.

Once out of the mold I still had to wait a week or so to be able to cut.
Also I got either some glycerin rivers or something else happened.
I'll add a picture so if someone would be so kind maybe you could diagnose what really has happened.
(On top is a mixture of MP soap and bath butter, next time I'll probably would want to CP use soap for the same effect)

10 % superfat
27% lye

60 %	Olive oil	600 gram
20 %	Coconut oil	200 gram
10 %	Castor oil	100 gram
10 %	Apricot seed oil	100 gram

So far I've been thinking about maybe using some more coconut oil.
Also I think that using a lye solution with a stronger concentration might help.

But all tips and advice are more than welcome!
Thanks for reading and thinking with me,

- Debby

*Edit I'm planning on buying sodium lactate to use in the future when I make soap.
If anyone happens to know a good website that delivers to the Netherlands that would be great!
**Edit: I've used mica for the color and TD dissolved in almond oil.
Also I've run out of apricot seed oil I'm planning on not using it for now.
*** Edit: Took typo out of title

You are using 27% lye concentration and adding extra oil for your colours.
If I were you I'd try 31% lye concentration so the soap isn't so soft when you go to unmold it.
Also your 10% Superfat is high when you are adding your colours with extra oil. If you don't want to do any maths or mucking around try 5% or less SF. High superfat can produce a gluggy soap.
I also don't use more than 5% castor oil as it makes soap sticky above that for me. It is great in soap at that low % though.
Personally I wouldn't add more than 20% coconut oil. I find it makes my skin itch and it dissolves really quickly.

 

[linne1gi]

You are using 27% lye concentration and adding extra oil for your colours.
If I were you I'd try 31% lye concentration so the soap isn't so soft when you go to unmold it.
Also your 10% Superfat is high when you are adding your colours with extra oil. If you don't want to do any maths or mucking around try 5% or less SF. High superfat can produce a gluggy soap.
I also don't use more than 5% castor oil as it makes soap sticky above that for me. It is great in soap at that low % though.
Personally I wouldn't add more than 20% coconut oil. I find it makes my skin itch and it dissolves really quickly.

I agree except I suggest a 33% lye concentration which is about a 2:1 ratio of water to lye. Instead of increasing your Coconut Oil, I would suggest adding a butter such as Cocoa Butter, Mango Butter or Shea Butter depending on which is cheaper for you. Obviously when you change your recipe you need to run it through SoapCalc. Also instead of sodium lactate which is expensive you can use plain non iodized table salt. Dissolve the salt (1 teaspoon per pound of oils) in your distilled water before you add the lye.

 

[DeeAnna]

...the soap to enter gel phase at a lower temp than a low water soap. Saponification is slower in a high water soap than in a low water soap and a high water soap stays in gel phase longer, and moves out of gel phase more slowly than a low water soap.

I'm in complete agreement with all of this. Not sure how this relates to your mentions of overheating, uneven saponification, and volcanoes -- these points are what I was reacting to.

The gel temp doesn't absolutely determine whether a soap will have rivers or not.

You can enhance the chance of rivers in any soap, whether high water or low, by insulating the soap during saponification or by using a CPOP method -- anything to insure the soap stays in gel longer. Clara Lindberg (Auntie Clara) illustrates this beautifully in her blog.

And on the flip side, you can make a high water soap and not have rivers, if you soap fairly cool and/or use add artificial cooling (a fan, for example) -- anything to insure the soap does NOT stay in gel very long. Although I'll concede the easier solution is to simply use less water.

 

[TheDebby]

Thank you again so much!
There are so many things I would have never thought about to look up or ask for.
So I really appreciate all the help and information.

Today I'll make a new batch of soap and I can't wait to see the difference the better recipe is going to make.
Also I finally got to clean up the first bars I made (before the one I showed in here) once I've cut the soap I'm going to make today I will post some pictures.
Maybe even of my real first soaps. I found out that I actually still have some pictures saved on Facebook. I totally out I made a milk soap a few years ago....

Anyway I try and not get to much off topic.
The recipe I'm going to use is:

Water : Lye Ratio​

2.0000:1​

#	√	Oil/Fat​	%​	Pounds​	Ounces​	Grams​
1​		Olive Oil​	35.00	0.772	12.35	350.00
2​		Shea Butter​	25.00	0.551	8.82	250.00
3​		Coconut Oil, 76 deg​	20.00	0.441	7.05	200.00
4​		Sunflower Oil​	10.00	0.220	3.53	100.00
5​		Grapeseed Oil​	10.00	0.220	3.53	100.00
​		Totals	100.00	2.205	35.27	1,000.00

This is based on that I already have at home. This week I'll order some ingredients I'm interested in trying.
I guess it would be better to try the recipe in very small amounts and test it about bore making a larger size soap.
At least I know that would make more sense.
But I really want to see the difference it makes and I feel the best way is to use the same amount in the same mold.

After this soap I'll go and figure out what my favorite recipe is going to be.
Although I will not sell this soap, I will probably gift a piece or two on a birthday.
That is why think a general good soap is quite important.
I'll try the soaps a bit for myself before gifting, to make sure they are safe.
Although I've never made a soap that was bad enough to cause any harm, I feel like I'm 200% responsible.

 

[TheDebby]

The difference is absolutely night and day! It is a little to soft to cut right now but it already feels way better.
I'll probably will be able to cut it tomorrow.