Solid oil massage bar ?

[Shelley D]

A little update on massage bars, + a big mistery:

- according to my tests, the best massage bars are with high cocoa percentage, a bit of shea and a bit of wax. The cocoa makes a hard bar but gives a great slip once warmed.

- BIG mystery (to me at least...): the bars I was trying to get close to are made with the following ingredients: CO, Cocoa, Shea and Rice bran wax. In that INCI order on the label.
I have tried all combinations ! Whatever I do, the CO in it makes the bar too soft (when their bar is rock hard).
I find it very intriguing as I understand that INCI ingredients are to be written in the order of quantities, but here it is just not possible ? Unless I missed something...

The reason I was wanting to make their bar is that it does not have that strong cocoa smell which is great with scents like vanilla or Ylang Ylang, strong scents, but not so great with lavender or rose....

Just a thought, but typically ingredients are listed from most to least, but sometimes the ingredients are in equal amounts so the order of the listing is per the maker's choosing or alphabetical. Did you try equal amounts in your testing? Like equal parts coconut oil and cocoa butter, then a little shea & RBW?
For example (and keep in mind I don't know the actual recipe percentages, just using numbers for the example) :
It could be
40% CO/40% CB/10% SB/ 10% RBW. At those percentages either the CO or the CB could come first. Like I said, just a thought

 

[CecileBC]

Just a thought, but typically ingredients are listed from most to least, but sometimes the ingredients are in equal amounts so the order of the listing is per the maker's choosing or alphabetical. Did you try equal amounts in your testing? Like equal parts coconut oil and cocoa butter, then a little shea & RBW?
For example (and keep in mind I don't know the actual recipe percentages, just using numbers for the example) :
It could be
40% CO/40% CB/10% SB/ 10% RBW. At those percentages either the CO or the CB could come first. Like I said, just a thought

Hi Shelley !
Thanks for your thoughts
Yes, I did think it could be equal parts of each (25% each), and up to 40%/40%/10%/10%. I tried the whole range. The 25% one is too waxy ( no oil coming out) and from then on the bars become too soft. I think, as KiwiMoose said, that CO makes it too soft. The only way I had to make them harder was to largely increase the Cocoa - not the wax (as it was making the bars too "draggy" on the skin).
I thought they could have added something to harden the bar, but then it should be mentioned in the INCI list....?

 

[Shelley D]

Hi Shelley !
Thanks for your thoughts
Yes, I did think it could be equal parts of each (25% each), and up to 40%/40%/10%/10%. I tried the whole range. The 25% one is too waxy ( no oil coming out) and from then on the bars become too soft. I think, as KiwiMoose said, that CO makes it too soft. The only way I had to make them harder was to largely increase the Cocoa - not the wax (as it was making the bars too "draggy" on the skin).
I thought they could have added something to harden the bar, but then it should be mentioned in the INCI list....?

Interesting ~ but I have to say I have been quite surprised at how many recipes I come across with coconut oil as the first ingredient and I just can't make sense of it either
Maybe they transposed the coconut and cocoa on their ingredients list or, as you mentioned, didn't list a hardener. I will be following your adventure so be sure your end result!

 

[CecileBC]

Interesting ~ but I have to say I have been quite surprised at how many recipes I come across with coconut oil as the first ingredient and I just can't make sense of it either
Maybe they transposed the coconut and cocoa on their ingredients list or, as you mentioned, didn't list a hardener. I will be following your adventure so be sure your end result!

For interest sake, I will look into what can be added to not saponified oils to make them harder - salt being not soluble in oil, I don't think it could be it. Haha, another challenge

 

[Shelley D]

For interest sake, I will look into what can be added to not saponified oils to make them harder - salt being not soluble in oil, I don't think it could be it. Haha, another challenge

And Lord knows we love a good challenge!

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Relative to the discussion about trace, above:

There is a lotion/balm “stone” sold by Kate McCleod the US that is made without any wax. When I tried making a dup of it a few months back, what resulted was a soft oily mess. After a little research, I learned that it’s possible to make firm cocoa butter-rich bars without using wax, but technique is critical (caveat- I have not yet had a chance to try this technique). McCleod started as a pastry chef and there’s a suggestion (clue!) on her website that her familiarity with the behavior of cocoa butter was helpful. Unfortunately, I had not discovered the Humblebee Cinnamon Cocoa Massage Bar recipe when I made my first attempt at a waxless bar. Marie’s bar is a dup of a Lush bar that has just three ingredients - cocoa butter, shea butter and jojoba oil. The YT video shows how to bring the melted fats to “trace” and the instructions on the website provide this important guidance:

“While the blend of the base ingredients is important, the making technique has to be bang on in order to get a successful end product. We’ll be bringing the melted fats to quite a thick trace before pouring the mixture into our moulds and letting the bars set up at room temperature. I found that too thin of a trace means the bars won’t set up [remember: this recipe does not include wax], and putting them in the fridge results in a horribly grainy/mealy end product. For silky smooth, solid bars you need a heavy trace and room temperature setting up…”

I finally have refined shea butter again and will be giving the HB&M recipe a try soon.

 

[DeeAnna]

...“rice bran wax” isn’t a true wax; it is just hydrogenated rice bran oil, or RBO mixed with a hydrogenated vegetable oil...

I saw a mention today in another thread about rice bran wax and looked into it further. Thought I'd pass on the info I found to correct some misconceptions about this ingredient.

RB wax is not hydrogenated RBO like soy "wax" is. Nor is it RBO mixed with hydrogenated veg oil (shortening).

It really is a true wax that's a normal component of crude rice bran oil as the oil comes direct from the extraction process. The wax is removed from the crude RBO (a process called "winterizing") so the RBO remains liquid when the oil gets cold. RB wax is used in a lot of different products, including cosmetics and foods. It has a high melt temperature -- about 80C / 180F.

Since it is not formed by hydrogenation, it's being touted as a more "natural" alternative to hydrogenated "waxes".

I don't have any personal experience using this wax, however, so have no advice about how to use it in soap, lotions, lotion bars, etc.

 

[CecileBC]

I saw a mention today in another thread about rice bran wax and looked into it further. Thought I'd pass on the info I found to correct some misconceptions about this ingredient.

RB wax is not hydrogenated RBO. Nor is it RBO mixed with hydrogenated veg oil (shortening) like soy wax.

It really is a true wax that's a normal component of crude rice bran oil as the oil comes direct from the extraction process. The wax is removed from the crude RBO (a process called "winterizing") so the RBO remains liquid when the oil gets cold. RB wax is used in a lot of different products, including cosmetics and foods. It has a high melt temperature -- about 80C / 180F.

Since it is not formed by hydrogenation, it's being touted as a more "natural" alternative to hydrogenated "waxes".

I don't have any personal experience using this wax, however, so have no advice about how to use it in soap, lotions, lotion bars, etc.

Thank you DeeAnna - you probably refer to one of my posts that seems to have been moved to a forum about lotion bars... It was about a method to work with RBW.
Thank you for sharing this info !

 

[AliOop]

Thanks for that information, @DeeAnna!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hello - I was just reading that you can add cetyl alcohol as a 'hardener'. Might try this in my lotion bars?

 

[CecileBC]

Hi !
If you try it, let us know how it ended up
Although it does not behave apparently like a true alcohol and is therefore not damaging to the skin, I would still worry about it being in the ingredients list ...

A quick question, knowing you make lotion bars with candelilla wax: when you add the oils, are you not faced with the wax solidifying straight away ? I have a problem with adding my shea to the melted wax, as it means the wax has to be very hot so it does not solidify on contact with the shea, and therefore, my shea having undergone high temperatures, it sometimes becomes grainy with time... Any tips ?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Yes I worried about the words 'cetyl alcohol' in the ingredients list too but it's a fatty alcohol, so therefore actually good for the skin. But yeah, explaining that to people is going to be tricky.

I use carnauba wax, and soy wax, and I throw all the hard/solid fats into the pot together to melt together before adding the liquid oils (while still on the heat). Yes, I have notice my shea butter gets a bit grainy after a LONG time - 6 months. But it doesn't affect the product use at all. I am thinking I will reduce the amount of shea butter in upcoming bars (because it's too greasy) and add kokum and/or mango butter in an attempt to emulate @Zing's bars which are rock hard and non-greasy.

 

[CecileBC]

My shea seems to get grainy in a week... it is only visual, so it does not affect the bar, but it's not smooth-looking.
I have tried Kokum butter in bars, and it helps a lot with hardness. It is also great on skin, not sticky at all.
Same here, I have decided to use shea only in bars for dry and damaged skin, as indeed I find it greasy...
And I love mango butter ! However, I had to make a choice between kokum and mango, pricewise. I have a preference for the feel of mango butter on the skin, very smooth and light, but the hardness of kokum is more important to me, and it still has a nice feel.

 

[Savage Daughter]

My shea seems to get grainy in a week... it is only visual, so it does not affect the bar, but it's not smooth-looking.

I recall hearing somewhere that holding shea at 120º for at least 20 minutes will prevent graininess. Mrs Soap & Clay maybe? Or the Humblebee chick?

I have also seen people stir their cooling butters & oils when making certain products to prevent shea graininess, but obviously your melted mixture would still need to be liquid enough to pour.

I really dislike it when my products go grainy, can't stand the feel on my skin, so for me, it's more than cosmetic. I have found that those grains can sometimes become quite difficult to melt on the skin.

For that reason, I now avoid shea. It's just too much of a pain in the bum. I've got bigger fish to fry

Even though I avoid shea & now use mango butter in place of it, I still use my stick blender to whiz my body butter mix (that's what I call mine, not lotion bars) as it's dropping in temperature. Just in case

 

[CecileBC]

I recall hearing somewhere that holding shea at 120º for at least 20 minutes will prevent graininess. Mrs Soap & Clay maybe? Or the Humblebee chick?

I have also seen people stir their cooling butters & oils when making certain products to prevent shea graininess, but obviously your melted mixture would still need to be liquid enough to pour.

I really dislike it when my products go grainy, can't stand the feel on my skin, so for me, it's more than cosmetic. I have found that those grains can sometimes become quite difficult to melt on the skin.

For that reason, I now avoid shea. It's just too much of a pain in the bum. I've got bigger fish to fry

Even though I avoid shea & now use mango butter in place of it, I still use my stick blender to whiz my body butter mix (that's what I call mine, not lotion bars) as it's dropping in temperature. Just in case

Thank you QuasiQuadrant !
After reading your post I did a quick research and found this article stating that it should be heated at 175 for 20 minutes:
https://jenniraincloud.com/how-to-avoid-grainy-balms/And this one explaining the crystalization + how to prevent uneven crystalization with a quick freeze after pouring:
https://soapandmore.ca/fr/blogs/education/how-to-prevent-shea-from-going-grainy