Sodium citrate from baking soda and citric acid

[Dahila]

I swear I posted here , with questions but maybe I had done it in the wrong thread)
Galaxy so I need to use stainless pot and on very low heat , then if I get something like you had, How much would you use PPO?
I use citric acid now. On you tube is a lot of vids but only the solution, I will try and if success will post)

 

[galaxyMLP]

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean by low heat? You need to boil off the water so I would actually put the mixture on the stove on high heat not low heat. You can start it on no heat until it finishes reacting (is clear with no bubbles) and your pH is 7-8; then you can put it on high heat.

I would use around 1-3% like with EDTA. Just dissolve it in a bit of water before adding it to your mix or add it into your lye solution. Just make sure you're not using a super concentrated lye solution (example, 50%). Otherwise the sodium citrate wont dissolve for the higher %.

The percentage use is going to depend on how hard your water is. My water is very hard so I'm using about 2.5-3% of the total batch weight (not per the oil amounts). However, because this isn't going to react with the soap itelf and is only to help mitigate hard water/soap scum issues, exactly the same percentages/measurments each time are not super critical. I'd play with it a bit and see what helps.

 

[Dahila]

Galaxy thanks, I thought is should evaporate slowly, but ok. so I actually use it like CA but I do not have to add extra lye.
One more problem. I have no PH paper to check the ph. of solution

 

[galaxyMLP]

Galaxy thanks, I thought is should evaporate slowly, but ok. so I actually use it like CA but I do not have to add extra lye.
One more problem. I have no PH paper to check the ph. of solution

Thats ok! Dont worry too much about the pH. It really wont affect the superfat much as long as you add the correct amounts of BS and CA in the beginning. I just did that as a check for myself to see that it worked. Chances are you have reacted almost all of the CA and BS. Another interesting way to check would be to add pinches of BS to the solution and watch it to see if its reacting. If it no longer fizzes when you add pinches of BS, you've consumed all the CA and you're good to go!

You can have it evaporate slowly if you want, I'm just an instant gratification kind of person. You can even just let it sit out and evaporate on its on if you wanted! depends on how patient you want to be!

 

[Dahila]

Thank you so much , all my questions answered, you are a jewel Galaxy , will post with the results maybe this week,

 

[galaxyMLP]

"Honestly, officer, it IS sodium citrate. It says so on the pack!"

I forgot to say something about this! He he. I thought that as I was bagging it up. Then I thought, what will my roommate think of all of these little crystals on the floor (oops! I spilled some...)?

My boyfriend has called me "Wendy White" after Walter White. I haven't even told him about this newest experiment!

 

[TeresaT]

Second attempt. I'll go pour olive oil from the big bottles to the small bottles while this finishes reacting.

 

[galaxyMLP]

Looking good!!

 

[TeresaT]

It still foams and bubbles when I stir it. Is that normal? This is what it looks like now.

 

[TeresaT]

After stirring. It's actually a lot less now. I think I'll just leave it overnight and cook it when I get home from work.

 

[galaxyMLP]

Okays! Yes, it shouldn't fizz at all when mixed. If you start heating it at that final stage that will help get those last "fizzies" out by making the reaction go faster.

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

Could someone please offer a quick "Dummies Guide" version of the pros/cons of Sodium Citrate vs just adding Citric Acid? I've only just started adding CA to my soaps to combat hard water (they're still curing, so I haven't even tried them yet) and now I'm wondering if I should be using SC instead? :wtf:

Cheers,
SK

 

[DeeAnna]

See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=506213 especially post 14

Eta ... I should,also add it doesn't matter whether you use,citric acid and the appropriate extra lye or whether you use sodium citrate, at least as far as the soap is,concerned. It might make a difference to your soaping process whether you use on or the other ... one might be more convenient or easier to use or whatever.

 

[galaxyMLP]

You need to add additional lye and calculate it out every time you use citric acid in your lye water/soap batter.

This is because lye (sodium hydroxide, in this case) is a base and citric acid is, well, an acid. Acid + base = neutralization in the simplest sense. Thus, you are neutralizing some of your base. But, it's supposed to react with your soap, and is instead reacting with your citric acid. This leads to an artificially high superfat. To combat this, you have to add extra lye when you make each an every batch of soap to neutralize the amount of CA you are adding without eating up your lye that you want to react with your soap. When you add the extra lye and are reacting the CA, you are making sodium citrate in that exact moment. Same stuff I'm making here!

Making the sodium citrate just removed that last step of adding the extra lye in to the original mix. That way I don't have to calculate out adding extra lye from the get go. In that case, I weigh it just like every other additive and the amounts become much less supercritical.

Edit: aaand, Dee beat me to it, albeit with alot less words! Haha.

 

[commoncenz]

One other thing of note: Making Sodium Citrate using baking soda, as Galaxy has shown us how to do, will actually save you money in the long run if you are making a lot of soap. The cost of the extra lye that you would use to convert the CA to SC in your soap will add up over time (even though it is just a little extra). Baking soda is cheaper than lye.

I know I sound like a penny pinching skin flint, but ... lol

 

[sudsy_kiwi]

Thank you all for your help. One little follow-up...how do I calculate the extra lye needed if I continue to just use CA?

And hey, I'm all about pinching pennies where I can, so I'll have a crack at making up some SC

ETA: Ooops, disregard the above, I'm apparently having a blonde/senior/tired moment. Just went and re-read the thread linked above and found this... "10 g citric acid neutralizes 6.24 g NaOH"

Thanks again
Matt

 

[cmzaha]

Thank you all for your help. One little follow-up...how do I calculate the extra lye needed if I continue to just use CA?

And hey, I'm all about pinching pennies where I can, so I'll have a crack at making up some SC

ETA: Ooops, disregard the above, I'm apparently having a blonde/senior/tired moment. Just went and re-read the thread linked above and found this... "10 g citric acid neutralizes 6.24 g NaOH"

Thanks again
Matt

I figured out my needed citric by oil weight at 2.5%, then multiply the answer by 0.624 for the extra lye.
Since I soap with 50/50 lye solution I add on the extra lye needed to the total lye * 2 for total lye. All the info goes on my recipe sheet so I do not forget the additional lye

 

[TeresaT]

Just burned the sodium citrate. Very annoyed. Tomorrow after work, when both the pot and I have cooled off, I will get out the hammer and chisel. And now we know why I don't cook anymore.

 

[DeeAnna]

Try adding some water and let it soak. That may help!

 

[TeresaT]

I started to do that, but thought that would defeat the purpose of cooking it. But, I feel better that you've made the suggestion, DeeAnna. Thanks. I'll go toss some distilled water in it and see what happens. If it's a total mess-up, where do I buy sodium citrate?