Lin19687
Well-Known Member
I just want to bump this and another thread because it has such GREAT INFO on it.. Acid Profiles
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Desederata
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Wow........I'm amazed at the wealth of knowledge on this board. So much to learn. I did not realize that the temperature of the heated oils was so important. I know I have overheated my palm oil a couple of times only because I forgot about it on the stove. I need to be more vigilant when heating my oils.
homesteaders
Well-Known Member
Until recently, I have always (~25 year) made hot process soap, and have never experienced DOS. I'm now starting to experiment with CP to try some techniques that have been difficult to impossible with HP. Until I started with CP, I had never even heard of DOS. I wondered if the extended period of heat in HP was what prevented DOS. But, from what I'm reading here, it sounds like the heat is a factor in causing rancidity. I wonder if it has to do with the amount of time with the heat, sort of like the 'heat and hold' in making lotions. I've read that holding the temp doesn't make any difference (at least theoretically), but in my own lotion experiments, I have found that it does.
So, because of that, I was thinking of heating and holding my oils for cp batches at a high temp -- around 180, and then holding for about half an hour before allowing them to cool for soaping. Or for master batched oils, heating and holding just before using in cp. But it sounds like that would actually increase the risk of rancidity unless I use something like ROA and EDTA. Is that correct?
So, because of that, I was thinking of heating and holding my oils for cp batches at a high temp -- around 180, and then holding for about half an hour before allowing them to cool for soaping. Or for master batched oils, heating and holding just before using in cp. But it sounds like that would actually increase the risk of rancidity unless I use something like ROA and EDTA. Is that correct?
Heat and hold in lotion making has to do with warming the emulsifier and fats to an optimum temperature and then providing enough time at that temp so they can form micelles (balls of fat molecules surrounded by emulsifier molecules). This micelle formation helps the fats and emulsifier to form the most stable emulsion when combined with the water phase.
Some emulsifiers, especially ones often used by small scale and hobby lotion makers, make a more stable emulsion with heat and hold. Other emulsifiers don't require heat and hold. So it's not an accross-the-board requirement even for lotion making.
I honestly doubt heat and hold would be a useful technique for soap making. The way I see it, you're just warming the oils -- where's the emulsifier? But there's no harm in it. If you already cook HP soap for a long time, a half hour heat and hold period isn't going to make matters any worse.
Some emulsifiers, especially ones often used by small scale and hobby lotion makers, make a more stable emulsion with heat and hold. Other emulsifiers don't require heat and hold. So it's not an accross-the-board requirement even for lotion making.
I honestly doubt heat and hold would be a useful technique for soap making. The way I see it, you're just warming the oils -- where's the emulsifier? But there's no harm in it. If you already cook HP soap for a long time, a half hour heat and hold period isn't going to make matters any worse.
homesteaders
Well-Known Member
Thank you, DeeAnna. On the heat and hold for soap, I was talking about trying it for CP, with the idea that it might decrease the risk of DOS. I haven't done enough CP recently to know if DOS would even be a problem with my recipes, environment. I've never seen it with any of my HP soaps, and just want to decrease the risk in CP. But from what I'm reading here, it sounds like heating and holding the oils before CP would probably not matter, and could even increase the risk. Right?
DeeAnna...........WSP sets a shelf life of ROE at 1 year. NDA sets a shelf life at 2 months. I contacted them about that and their only answer was that their manufacturer is the one that sets the 2 month shelf life. So I don't buy there. Like you I purchase a small amount but try to use it up within a year.
I haven't spent much time thinking about this, but my quick reaction is it sounds like you're theory is that heating fats reduces the chance of rancidity, and I'm not sure I agree.
It is a known fact that higher temps increase the rate of many chemical reactions, including the oxidation and breakdown of fats and fatty acids. Faster oxidation increases the likelihood of rancidity. But we're talking probabilities here, not absolute certainty. Speaking for myself, I avoid long heating of any oil or soap, if at all possible.
i've read about not storing soap in plastic containers for long periods of time, keeping them out of heat and light, storing them in cardboard boxes, etc-
i hadnt considered wrapping and storing in fabric. can long term storage shinkwrapped in plastic be problematic? or would it be better for them to be sealed away from air?
After my soap has cured for 4+ weeks, I shrink wrap each bar. I usually create a "sniffy hole" in each covering, so it's not entirely air tight but sometimes it's hard to make a hole in my sample size bars, and I don't stress over the occasional bar without a sniffy hole. I don't see any differences after long term storage between bars with or without holes.
I sell soap at a local gift shop, and I don't have a lot of control where the soap is located. The bars generally look fine after weeks in the shop, but I did have one instance this past year that I want to share.
One bar had been in a display window that looks out onto the sidewalk and received intense sunlight for some weeks. The face of the bar exposed to the sun was entirely covered with shrink wrap. A paper label under the wrap hid about 1/2 of that face. The soap not covered by the label had discolored and even looked a little "dossy". The soap that was hidden under the label looked normal and all the other sides of the bar did too. Just the sun bleached part was in trouble. I planed off a few shavings off this face out of sheer curiosity, and the underlying soap looked good. The bar went into our shower to get used up.
Based on that (and similar but less dramatic) experiences as well as the Soapsmith experiment, I am less worried about whether the packaging is air tight or not and more concerned about whether the soap is exposed to UV light (as well as dust and fingerprints.)
I think the clear shrink wrap helps a little, but obviously not as much as an opaque covering such as the paper label or Soapsmith's muslin bags.
I sell soap at a local gift shop, and I don't have a lot of control where the soap is located. The bars generally look fine after weeks in the shop, but I did have one instance this past year that I want to share.
One bar had been in a display window that looks out onto the sidewalk and received intense sunlight for some weeks. The face of the bar exposed to the sun was entirely covered with shrink wrap. A paper label under the wrap hid about 1/2 of that face. The soap not covered by the label had discolored and even looked a little "dossy". The soap that was hidden under the label looked normal and all the other sides of the bar did too. Just the sun bleached part was in trouble. I planed off a few shavings off this face out of sheer curiosity, and the underlying soap looked good. The bar went into our shower to get used up.
Based on that (and similar but less dramatic) experiences as well as the Soapsmith experiment, I am less worried about whether the packaging is air tight or not and more concerned about whether the soap is exposed to UV light (as well as dust and fingerprints.)
I think the clear shrink wrap helps a little, but obviously not as much as an opaque covering such as the paper label or Soapsmith's muslin bags.
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