Soap Making with NaHCO3

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Wow! Thank you, DeeAnna. That was really interesting to read

 

[Susie]

Thank you! You rock!

 

[Ellacho]

Thank you DeeAnna! You are awesome!!!!

 

[coffeetime]

Clap! Clap! Thank you DeAnna! How do you find all this info? Is there a history of soapmaking book out there somewhere?

 

[goji_fries]

That is what I needed DeAnna, thank you, wow, wow

 

[maria6]

That was some really interesting information, DeeAnna!
Thanks a lot for sharing!
So, I guess this is the way my friend uses.
I am not sure if he will share his "cooking" methods with me, as he runs his own company, selling the soaps he creates, but I will ask him and see..
I believe I should use NaOH instead in my saponification process taking into account all you guys said.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

{doing my "i am not worthy" mantra } Kudos to you DeeAnna ! you are the Anchor that keeps this forum boat steady , bless you . i love the info , and after reading all the info and thinking of Maria6 friend using NaHCO3 to make soap it caused me to visualize why and how one would want to use this long slow process . in doing so i have a couple questions that jump into mind. is he trying to [re] create that long process that Aleppo and Savon use in their factory to make soap on a small "home" scale ? [i am sure you can do it using other methods ] and 2nd question, what would be the final quality of the soap made using this process? is it a milder soap seeing that its a milder alkali ?
just thinking out loud .
Kudos to you again and thank you for your diligence DeeAnna
it would be nice to see what more info Maria6 can get out of her friend for its deeply interesting .

 

[DeeAnna]

I woke up and remembered I should have added that the sodium bicarb method will work best to make soap from fatty acids rather than fats. We don't normally use fatty acids directly in handcrafted soap making, although stearic acid is often included in shaving soap recipes (as The Gent well knows!)

The most difficult step of making soap is splitting the fatty acids away from the glycerin. A strong alkali like KOH or NaOH is going to do that job better than a weak alkali. The second step of actually creating the soap -- in other words, adding a sodium or potassium to each fatty acid -- is the easier part. A weak alkali can do that task just fine. Heck, even salt will work.

That's not to say that sodium bicarb won't work to make soap from fats, just saying it will be more difficult, compared with making soap from fatty acids.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...is he trying to [re] create that long process that Aleppo and Savon use in their factory to make soap on a small "home" scale ?..."

Nope. The traditional methods of aleppo would use the lime and ash method of making ley/lye. It would be more "traditional" to directly use NaOH or KOH or a blend of both.

As far as the soap being milder, the short answer is another "nope".

Longer answer: When the sodium bicarb saponification reaction is finished, what is left in the basic soap? Sodium attached to fatty acids, glycerin, and water. That's the same as a soap made with NaOH. The carbonate has turned into carbon dioxide gas and left town, so to speak. So if soap made with sodium bicarb looks pretty much like soap made with NaOH, it will have roughly the same properties of pH, etc.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

"...is he trying to [re] create that long process that Aleppo and Savon use in their factory to make soap on a small "home" scale ?..."

Nope. The traditional methods of aleppo would use the lime and ash method of making ley/lye. It would be more "traditional" to directly use NaOH or KOH or a blend of both.

As far as the soap being milder, the short answer is another "nope".

Longer answer: When the sodium bicarb saponification reaction is finished, what is left in the basic soap? Sodium attached to fatty acids, glycerin, and water. That's the same as a soap made with NaOH. The carbonate has turned into carbon dioxide gas and left town, so to speak. So if soap made with sodium bicarb looks pretty much like soap made with NaOH, it will have roughly the same properties of pH, etc.

thank you so much for your swift reply DeeAnna , you have made this a great day of learning for me [ i try to learn something every day no matter what it is ] which i enjoy immensely . all of this has been interesting .

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Is there a history of soapmaking book out there somewhere?..."

I suppose there may well be, but I haven't come across it. Most of my info about historical soapmaking methods comes from reading books and articles of the day and piecing bits 'n pieces of information into a whole. It can be confusing and I don't always get it right ... my understanding is evolving too ... but it's interesting to learn and fun to share with y'all.

 

[goji_fries]

"...Is there a history of soapmaking book out there somewhere?..."

I suppose there may well be, but I haven't come across it. Most of my info about historical soapmaking methods comes from reading books and articles of the day and piecing bits 'n pieces of information into a whole. It can be confusing and I don't always get it right ... my understanding is evolving too ... but it's interesting to learn and fun to share with y'all.

Oh man DeeAnna, I have a pdf of about 400 pages of ancient recipes up until about 1940. If I find it, I'll try to find a link so you guys can have a copy. If I forget remind me.

 

[DeeAnna]

Would love to see that one, Goji! Thanks for thinking of it....

 

[goji_fries]

Would love to see that one, Goji! Thanks for thinking of it....

I have another one somewhere shwoing you how to make acids/oils from cheeses and how to crack citric acid into grape scents. It was a score. In fact I am going to look for it right now.:mrgreen:

 

[Dahila]

DeeAnna Thank you for the explantation, you made my time at work (while waiting for the bills) so much pleasurable. Thank you

 

[goji_fries]

Still looking for 3 of them pdfs. Posted a few about EO chemistry and such.

 

[maria6]

So, I assume that the pH level of the NaHCO3 created soap should be lower than soaps made using NaOH.
My friend's soaps are quite of a good quality and nice cleansing and moisturizeing properties.
Of course, I believe that the ingredients he uses play an important factor in this, as Greek extra virgin olive oil is one of the best quality oils that can be found.
Anyway, I will give it a try and see what happens with my batch using NaHCO3 and extra virgin olive oil with some percentage of coconut oil.
I have read that coconut oil can be a very good skin moisturizer if used in proper percentages.
What percentage would you think I should use olive and coconut oil to get a nice cleansing and moisturizing soap?
Eager to hear your opinions, as I see that this forum is full of really experienced and willing to offer their help members.
So lucky to be here with you!

 

[Lion Of Judah]

its not so much the ingredients as the process that has us peaked , because we all use the same oils and butters to varying degrees .... i still think you should try understand the process a little more before trying it with your oils , or do a small batch , say maybe less than a pound . have you used a lye calculator before ? try out a basic recipe with maybe three oils or two oils and a butter. the amount of Nahco3 you will need ppo is what needs to be worked out.

 

[Lion Of Judah]

".

Longer answer: When the sodium bicarb saponification reaction is finished, what is left in the basic soap? Sodium attached to fatty acids, glycerin, and water. That's the same as a soap made with NaOH. The carbonate has turned into carbon dioxide gas and left town, so to speak. So if soap made with sodium bicarb looks pretty much like soap made with NaOH, it will have roughly the same properties of pH, etc.

as stated in DeeAnna answer here it may be a milder alkali but the end results characteristically should be the same ,down to the ph and all after the soap is made.

 

[LBussy]

So, I assume that the pH level of the NaHCO3 created soap should be lower than soaps made using NaOH.

As Lion says ... probably not. It all goes through the same process, the carbonate simply takes longer.

My friend's soaps are quite of a good quality and nice cleansing and moisturizeing properties.
Of course, I believe that the ingredients he uses play an important factor in this, as Greek extra virgin olive oil is one of the best quality oils that can be found.

Don't take this the wrong way but to what are you comparing his soaps? If you are comparing to commercial soaps then it's apples and volkswagons. If you are comparing to other artisanal soaps then it's apples and carrots. If you are comparing the same exact soap made by two different people then it may be a comparison.

Also, EVOO is a marketing thing for OO based soaps. Pomace leaves a nicer skin feel (I think it may produce more glycerin?) when all is said and done. At the very least it makes no difference (except for the color of the soap) so unlike in cooking, there's no need for expensive oil.

What percentage would you think I should use olive and coconut oil to get a nice cleansing and moisturizing soap?

You will probably want to keep CO to no more than 25%. If the balance is made of OO then you are looking at a pretty long cure time. For your first soap my I suggest something a little easier and quicker? I've attached a recipe I did recently based on Irish Lass' help. It was very nice after a 6 week cure.

View attachment Irish Lass Bar Soap.pdf