I'm making a simple coconut oil (60) /palm oil (40) with 5% excess oils with a hardness (INS recommended range 136-165) of 213. Will there be problems (cracking, etc) over time with a soap this hard? It is to be used in a very hot & humid climate so I wanted a hard bar. Many thanks for any comments or suggestions.
Soap Hardness
- Thread starter brownjs
- Start date
Help Support Soapmaking Forum:
When you say you want a "hard" bar of soap, do you mean a bar of soap that will hold up through several washes?
Yes, probably the same thing. The harder the bar (higher the INS number) the slower it will probably dissolve. Thanks for your reply.
The cleansing number for this recipe is extremely high. Normal range is 12-22 with many people finding the upper end of that range to be too stripping of natural skin oils. Your recipe will result in a cleansing factor of 41. That is way too harsh for skin. There are other ways to prolong the life of a bar of soap besides aiming for the hardest bar of soap possible. For example, store the bar on a draining soap dish and don’t leave it where it will be constantly wet like under the direct stream of a shower.
Last edited:
I agree with @Kari Howie and would also note that a soap that high in coconut oil will dissolve quickly in water. So while it may be physically hard to the touch, it won't be particularly long-lasting, and it will be extremely harsh on the skin, as Kari said.
You might be interested in reading more about INS here.
You might be interested in reading more about INS here.
Coconut oil in cold process soap will make for a highly water soluble bar of soap. Meaning, you will not get that many washes from one bar.
Not really. You are confusing hardness with longevity. As @The_Phoenix said, your soap will be highly soluble and isn't likely to last long at all.
Yes, finding that to be true. Thanks for the post.
The soap is made in a tropical country - hot & high humidity. Wanted a bar that was not soft & could be packaged without sticking to the wrap.
I was making soap in El Salvador for at least 2 yrs, a very humid country. I would make my soap with a 5% SF, like yours, no more than 15% coconut 76°F, anywhere from 30 to 50% olive oil, BUT I'd use a brine, meaning at least 6% sea salt content in my water which I'd use to dilute my lye. That will increase the longevity of the bar you're looking for that's good in a humid environment.
To counteract the bubble-killing properties of the salt, I'd add some sort of sugar: either just plain sugar, or frozen fruit puree, honey, a bit of frozen fruit juice, all of which increase not just lather but actual bubbles that folks like.
My family, and extended family, learned to love my soaps even though at first they turned their noses up because they didn't smell as pretty as the store-bought ones. When they used up their first bar, they realized just how much nicer their skin felt, and that if they kept their soap away from their dripping shower heads and on their own little pads I gave them, it lasted a whole month.
Also, I don't give them bars of soap before curing them for at LEAST 2 months. Especially because it's a humid environment. They'll sweat a bunch at first. DON'T WIPE IT OFF. It's glycerine drops asks it'll be reabsorbed by the bars. Just keep them lightly covered with some plastic, like what schoolkids use to cover their schoolbooks, to keep the dust and bugs away.
The only other suggestion for achieving a long-lasting bar is a good long cure. The longer a soap bar sits, the longer and milder it becomes. Other soapers with more experience and knowledge will be better at explaining why. My mind is right now a bit shredded with lack of sleep, and some pain. But I'm making soap as well as bread to distract myself, so I'm helping as I can, to distract myself too.
Right now I've got my Nanny in El Salvador using the very last of her lavender lard heavy soaps I made for her in 2021! She leaves hers on the top of the wall of her shower, well away from any possible water splashers, like her granddaughters, or her mom and aunt who live with her, and she's told me they last her better than 6 weeks, or 2 months, even though she takes a shower every day, even if when she's sick as a dog.
I made her 3kg worth of oils, which came out to 4.3kg worth of soap. I did give away about a kg, maybe a bit more, to her chagrin, but I said don't be selfish
. So, about 7lbs of soap have lasted about 21 months (I was there in July of 2021 making it).
Hopefully I'll have enough time & $ to go make some more this yr.
I hope this helps you, and anyone else making soap in humid areas. It's not impossible, all it takes is a bit of strategy!
To counteract the bubble-killing properties of the salt, I'd add some sort of sugar: either just plain sugar, or frozen fruit puree, honey, a bit of frozen fruit juice, all of which increase not just lather but actual bubbles that folks like.
My family, and extended family, learned to love my soaps even though at first they turned their noses up because they didn't smell as pretty as the store-bought ones. When they used up their first bar, they realized just how much nicer their skin felt, and that if they kept their soap away from their dripping shower heads and on their own little pads I gave them, it lasted a whole month.
Also, I don't give them bars of soap before curing them for at LEAST 2 months. Especially because it's a humid environment. They'll sweat a bunch at first. DON'T WIPE IT OFF. It's glycerine drops asks it'll be reabsorbed by the bars. Just keep them lightly covered with some plastic, like what schoolkids use to cover their schoolbooks, to keep the dust and bugs away.
The only other suggestion for achieving a long-lasting bar is a good long cure. The longer a soap bar sits, the longer and milder it becomes. Other soapers with more experience and knowledge will be better at explaining why. My mind is right now a bit shredded with lack of sleep, and some pain. But I'm making soap as well as bread to distract myself, so I'm helping as I can, to distract myself too.
Right now I've got my Nanny in El Salvador using the very last of her lavender lard heavy soaps I made for her in 2021! She leaves hers on the top of the wall of her shower, well away from any possible water splashers, like her granddaughters, or her mom and aunt who live with her, and she's told me they last her better than 6 weeks, or 2 months, even though she takes a shower every day, even if when she's sick as a dog.
I made her 3kg worth of oils, which came out to 4.3kg worth of soap. I did give away about a kg, maybe a bit more, to her chagrin, but I said don't be selfish
. So, about 7lbs of soap have lasted about 21 months (I was there in July of 2021 making it).Hopefully I'll have enough time & $ to go make some more this yr.
I hope this helps you, and anyone else making soap in humid areas. It's not impossible, all it takes is a bit of strategy!
What a nice reply. Thank you for taking the time with all the detailed info. My wife & I have been teaching soapmaking at a Christian school in the Dominican Republic for the past several years as a mission project. I wanted to formulate a simple bar & that was the reason for using only CO & PO. Thanks for your suggestion re adding salt. I will give that a try as well as adding some sugar. All new to me. They have recently found local sources for the coconut & palm oils, but the palm is unrefined; i.e. contains b-carotene, a red/orange pigment. That pigment accelerates the saponification process (not a problem) but also makes it difficult to add any other color to the soap. They stamp the soap now rather than adding any extra color. Have a great week.I was making soap in El Salvador for at least 2 yrs, a very humid country. I would make my soap with a 5% SF, like yours, no more than 15% coconut 76°F, anywhere from 30 to 50% olive oil, BUT I'd use a brine, meaning at least 6% sea salt content in my water which I'd use to dilute my lye. That will increase the longevity of the bar you're looking for that's good in a humid environment.
To counteract the bubble-killing properties of the salt, I'd add some sort of sugar: either just plain sugar, or frozen fruit puree, honey, a bit of frozen fruit juice, all of which increase not just lather but actual bubbles that folks like.
My family, and extended family, learned to love my soaps even though at first they turned their noses up because they didn't smell as pretty as the store-bought ones. When they used up their first bar, they realized just how much nicer their skin felt, and that if they kept their soap away from their dripping shower heads and on their own little pads I gave them, it lasted a whole month.
Also, I don't give them bars of soap before curing them for at LEAST 2 months. Especially because it's a humid environment. They'll sweat a bunch at first. DON'T WIPE IT OFF. It's glycerine drops asks it'll be reabsorbed by the bars. Just keep them lightly covered with some plastic, like what schoolkids use to cover their schoolbooks, to keep the dust and bugs away.
The only other suggestion for achieving a long-lasting bar is a good long cure. The longer a soap bar sits, the longer and milder it becomes. Other soapers with more experience and knowledge will be better at explaining why. My mind is right now a bit shredded with lack of sleep, and some pain. But I'm making soap as well as bread to distract myself, so I'm helping as I can, to distract myself too.
Right now I've got my Nanny in El Salvador using the very last of her lavender lard heavy soaps I made for her in 2021! She leaves hers on the top of the wall of her shower, well away from any possible water splashers, like her granddaughters, or her mom and aunt who live with her, and she's told me they last her better than 6 weeks, or 2 months, even though she takes a shower every day, even if when she's sick as a dog.
I made her 3kg worth of oils, which came out to 4.3kg worth of soap. I did give away about a kg, maybe a bit more, to her chagrin, but I said don't be selfish
Hopefully I'll have enough time & $ to go make some more this yr.
I hope this helps you, and anyone else making soap in humid areas. It's not impossible, all it takes is a bit of strategy!
How about trying 30% CO, 30% OO and 40% Palm? Then adding the salt and sugar as suggested by @Iluminameluna. The olive will serve to slow your trace down, but also hardens nicely with a good cure. If you do opt for a lower CO amount (say 15%) I would consider reducing the superfat to just 2 or 3 percent when using OO. The less unsaponified fatty acids the better to reduce likelihood of rancidity and promote more lather.
I'm back to say that there's a cheaper alternative to my above recipe, to make it even more accessible to those who don't have access to a digital scale at home, but for whom you can print out a recipe (or they can copy quite easily from a board or a notebook).
I found that for hard fats at a local grocery chain that sells fairly cheap food stuffs, they had something called "manteca", which translates to "lard" (pig fat) in English. I had ignored it because there's a strong prejudice in ES against pig products in some sectors though there's few Muslims or Jews in our midst. Go figure.
Anyway, I realized one day that it's not a completely animal product at all but 99.9% hydrogenated palm oil, and beef tallow. No numbers, but I imagined it was that 0.1%. Just a wild guess, right? I only took math through college, myself...
So, I asked my housemate to check other oils at that same store, and bring home whatever oil she could find but, and gave her a list of those she SHOULDN'T get.
Gave her $10 and told her if she could bring home 1 tub of caustic soda (1lb), plus at least 3/4 total amount of oils and fats, in about equal amounts between liquid and solid ones. One she found was a mix of olive oil and palm (liquid). It was cheap, for what it was, all's turned out to be 60% non-virgin olive oil (perfect for soaping!), and 40% palm (couldn't tell you what provenance or what kind). Regardless, I was trying to figure out how to formulate a soap recipe that could be done by anyone wanting to set up either a small artisanal shop, or at the very least, their own families' supply chain of soap so they'd have a nice stash in case of another national emergency.
As it turned out, I could neither organize anyone interested, nor was I there long enough afterwards to try for a longer period of time to really push the idea forward either. But I did try it at home with my housemate. I walked her through it at least once, and she did it well enough, though I know, and knew, she wasn't going to be interested in the project.
At least I have my notes on how to replicate the recipe, just for future reference.
I found that for hard fats at a local grocery chain that sells fairly cheap food stuffs, they had something called "manteca", which translates to "lard" (pig fat) in English. I had ignored it because there's a strong prejudice in ES against pig products in some sectors though there's few Muslims or Jews in our midst. Go figure.
Anyway, I realized one day that it's not a completely animal product at all but 99.9% hydrogenated palm oil, and beef tallow. No numbers, but I imagined it was that 0.1%. Just a wild guess, right? I only took math through college, myself...
So, I asked my housemate to check other oils at that same store, and bring home whatever oil she could find but, and gave her a list of those she SHOULDN'T get.
Gave her $10 and told her if she could bring home 1 tub of caustic soda (1lb), plus at least 3/4 total amount of oils and fats, in about equal amounts between liquid and solid ones. One she found was a mix of olive oil and palm (liquid). It was cheap, for what it was, all's turned out to be 60% non-virgin olive oil (perfect for soaping!), and 40% palm (couldn't tell you what provenance or what kind). Regardless, I was trying to figure out how to formulate a soap recipe that could be done by anyone wanting to set up either a small artisanal shop, or at the very least, their own families' supply chain of soap so they'd have a nice stash in case of another national emergency.
As it turned out, I could neither organize anyone interested, nor was I there long enough afterwards to try for a longer period of time to really push the idea forward either. But I did try it at home with my housemate. I walked her through it at least once, and she did it well enough, though I know, and knew, she wasn't going to be interested in the project.
At least I have my notes on how to replicate the recipe, just for future reference.
Would a 100% CO with 20% superfat hold up in such an environment? With such a high SF, it’s ok to have low measuring precision, and the soap with that SF isn’t drying. The bars are still quite hard, they don’t get mushy even sitting in a damp room used several times a day. They last all the way to the last scrap. I don’t know if they last longer than other soaps because I liked the scent of the ones I made so much I obsessively wash for a minute every time just to keep smelling them 
but I’ve definitely had soaps that lasted a lot less. Also, it never cracked, and wasn’t particularly brittle by the end. If you can’t tell, I loved them, but somehow I heard others are not so enthusiastic 
but I’ve definitely had soaps that lasted a lot less. Also, it never cracked, and wasn’t particularly brittle by the end. If you can’t tell, I loved them, but somehow I heard others are not so enthusiastic 
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
I know one soaper who used that exact formula to make soap every year for her teenagers' acne. You're correct -- the balance of high coconut with high superfat works well together. However, it is my understanding that it requires a long cure time -- 3 months to a year -- but well worth it considering the end result.
I can testify that it’s fine to use within the standard 4 weeks, although it does improve with a little more time. Maybe it’s an environment thing? I haven’t even been soaping for a year, so I wouldn’t know how much better it gets, but it didn’t seem any slower than other soapsI know one soaper who used that exact formula to make soap every year for her teenagers' acne. You're correct -- the balance of high coconut with high superfat works well together. However, it is my understanding that it requires a long cure time -- 3 months to a year -- but well worth it considering the end result.
I just tried back to back a coconut soap that I made 6 months ago vs one I made 3 months ago, and they were indistinguishable.
I made one batch of 100% coconut soap with 20% superfat. It was awful on my skin (the old type). The only one in my family that liked it was my grandson, but he still said he preferred my lard and CO better. It also laid a huge amount of scum on the tiles in my shower. Never made it again.
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
Maybe.
I've been to Switzerland. I loved it. So rich and beautiful. We stayed in Interlaken and took day trips out every day. The train service was excellent! It reminded me of Denver, Colorado, with the Rocky Mountains to the west and cool air even on summer nights. However, with our "Alpine Desert Climate" the humidity is normally very low making it very dry. I probably would not use 100% coconut bar soap at 4 weeks, although 100% coconut liquid soap is not drying at all. Go figure.
I love 100% coconut with 20% sf and 50% salt, but only after 6 months + cure.
Same! I have some that is at 15 months and it is fantastic.
