SMF June 2019 Challenge - Rimmed Soap

[KiwiMoose]

Wait... Didn't I sign up already?

Oh, oh, sorry @artemis - I must have failed to copy you over and then put my name in your place.

Maybe my subconscious trying to eliminate the competition?

 

[KiwiMoose]

You guys are scaring me! I think I might have been a bit idealist about how this was all going to work out - so I can tell you now that if doesn't work on the first try I won't be wasting any more ingredients on making it happen. I'm not at all tenacious in that regard. @steffamarie - you crack me up with your tantrums and your willingness to share them with us - I literally LOLled. But good on you for not giving up - you're a bigger woman than I.

 

[earlene]

You guys are scaring me! I think I might have been a bit idealist about how this was all going to work out - so I can tell you now that if doesn't work on the first try I won't be wasting any more ingredients on making it happen. I'm not at all tenacious in that regard. @steffamarie - you crack me up with your tantrums and your willingness to share them with us - I literally LOLled. But good on you for not giving up - you're a bigger woman than I.

Okay, if you are not tenacious, KiwiMoose, then your artistic soaping skills are just plain awesome to start with! I am just plain jealous if you don't have to work hard once in awhile to get it right. Ah well, you are not the only one here that I admire for all your artistic skills. But I really would have thought you do possess tenacity and am very surprised that you say you don't.

The rims that didn't work as well as expected can still be used for other purposes. I use tiny little cutters (like doll house sized cookie cutters) to cut out shapes to later use as embellishments on top of soap. Hopefully I will get around to making soaps with the intricate designs on them like Vicki Frost (Black Cat Blues) using some of these cut-outs; or Serene, or scard, or any number of others here at SMF who have created some gorgeous soaps with embellishments!

 

[HowieRoll]

Well, it's been way too long since I've both soaped and entered a challenge!

1. steffamarie - why the heck not?! I'm only slightly terrified ;P
2. TheDragonGirl- This looks exciting and I already know what I want to do
3. MarnieSoapien - It's not what's on the outside that counts. Wait a minute...
4. dibbles - I see some Pringles in my future
5. Primrose - yes! Been wanting to try this for ages
6. msunnerstood- Im up for a Challenge
7. Serene- Earlene is hosting, I must.
8. AMD - I'm b-rimming with excitement over this challenge! (someone had to do it, right?)
9. Artemis - I have an idea, let's see if I have the time!
10. KiwiMoose - Oh alright then. You've twisted my rubber arm.
11. Amy78130- Fun!!!
12. HowieRoll (Angela) - rimmed soap, I shall conquer you one day. Maybe.

 

[HowieRoll]

My attempts at rimmed soap in the past have been mostly, well, disasters, so before I signed up here I made a small batch the other day to test the recipe as well as my patience level. The recipe was a variation of the one @earlene generously shared in Post #21 (changes were due to what ingredients I have on hand). It was:

32% Olive Oil
27% Coconut Oil
21% HO Sunflower Oil
20% Shea Butter

2% (oil weight) glycerin

33% lye concentration
8% superfat
Finished the entire thing in one day rather than let the rim sit overnight

I upped the SF to 8% to test if it would help with pliability. The end result was mostly great: firstly, it was by far and away a lot more pliable than my previous attempts, and did not crack (Hooray! Thanks, earlene!). However, there is a slight tackiness to the rim so it sticks to things and has a sort of pitted look from where the soap touched things and was pulled away. It is definitely not smooth like earlene's woodsy soap.

Before the next attempt does anyone have any advice? I was thinking perhaps maybe one or more of the following adjustments might help:

- Reduce the SF
- Let it sit overnight rather than try to stuff fresh soap into the pipe (although, the tackiness is still there 2 days later, and I was worried it would dry out a little overnight and be less pliable)
- Perhaps not CPOP it. It did start to overheat a couple times and I had to frantically open the door and wave at it to cool it down. Maybe the tackiness is from that?
- Of course, the tackiness could be a result of the added glycerin, but earlene's soap is so smooth
- Or? Open to suggestions!

Thank you!

 

[steffamarie]

@steffamarie - you crack me up with your tantrums and your willingness to share them with us - I literally LOLled. But good on you for not giving up - you're a bigger woman than I.

Ha, glad I can provide some entertainment! It's been frustrating for sure, but I think without using the "cutting" technique I will actually have success. The pliability isn't lacking, it's just that it's sooooo uneven and doesn't take stress well because of all the thin spots. In the batch I made with 8% SF and 15% castor, the result seemed to be a pretty good, if tacky, soap slice. That's what I'll be trying again this weekend when I make my final push to CONQUER THIS TECHNIQUE. I will prevail!!!! And so shall you!!!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I thought Shea butter would make it too brittle? If not, then I'm thinking along the lines of this:

30% Coconut
10 % Shea
10% Castor
30% Olive Oil
20% RBO

I'm expecting good pliability if i bring it out of the oven after CPOPing and curving it while it's still effectively hardening (i.e 'not ready' by our usual standards). I was also thinking that if I use the cookie sheet approach, and the cover the topside with freezer paper, then that 'topside freezer paper' is effectively my mold liner, no? Put it in the mold, smooth it bit, then pour the centre? Too idealistic?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Ooh - here's an idea, Why not make the inner part of the soap first? Let it set as usual. THEN make the rim and put it around the exterior of the soap AFTER. Is that a thing? It would be easier to work with that way wouldn't it?

 

[earlene]

Ooh - here's an idea, Why not make the inner part of the soap first? Let it set as usual. THEN make the rim and put it around the exterior of the soap AFTER. Is that a thing? It would be easier to work with that way wouldn't it?

Well, now, how would they adhere to each other, then? And how will you get them back into a mold together to CPOP so the Rim can gel? Especially if it is a round mold? Two round molds of different diameters?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Well, now, how would they adhere to each other, then? And how will you get them back into a mold together to CPOP so the Rim can gel? Especially if it is a round mold? Two round molds of different diameters?

If the inner soap is made, and removed from the mold, then the rim can be gelled and while it's still warm can be wrapped around the inner. Do you think they won't bond if done that way?

 

[MarnieSoapien]

I made my rims yesterday and feel like they were a success. There were a few cracks on the edges where it was thinnest but overall, it worked out quite well. It was still pliable after almost 24 hours.

Here's the recipe I used:
45% Olive Oil
25% Coconut Oil
10% Shea
10% Sweet Almond
10% Castor

 

[earlene]

If the inner soap is made, and removed from the mold, then the rim can be gelled and while it's still warm can be wrapped around the inner. Do you think they won't bond if done that way?

Maybe, depending on how putting them together is done.

Putting the two parts it together and expect it to bond without any help, I don't think that would happen. I think it would start to pull apart when cut or as it cures. However, with additional help perhaps it would.

If the inner core and the outer rim are separately gelled before putting them together, I believe you are going to need a bonding agent. You could use soap 'paste' like is used to get soap dough cut-outs to adhere to other soap, by painting it on with a brush over the surface of the rim &/or the inner core. If both rim & inner core were gelled, I believe that soap paste would have to be painted fairly thick & gooey. Then I think you'd need to heat up the soap once it's together to get that bond to really be strong and keep the parts together, but I could be wrong. Maybe heating wouldn't be required. But you'd have to be sure of your bond before cutting the soap.

I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around how this can be done to ensure the rim doesn't pull away from the inner core once cut or the soap is in use. That's why I think it might need more help, such as the heating process to help make sure the bonding agent (soap paste) permeates all the microscopic spaces of both adjacent surfaces. And I think putting it back into the mold together to keep the shape might be an issue. However, if you do have a slightly larger mold of the same shape, in which the new rimmed soap can fit snugly, then I'd say stick that in the warm oven and let the paste gel and create a stronger bond by permeating those microscopic spaces on both adjacent surfaces.

So I say, give it a try if you want. It might be a new way to create a rimmed soap.

 

[MGM]

You guys are scaring me! I think I might have been a bit idealist about how this was all going to work out - so I can tell you now that if doesn't work on the first try I won't be wasting any more ingredients on making it happen. I'm not at all tenacious in that regard.

OMG @KiwiMoose , if you're telling me that all those amazing soaps we've been seeing lo these past few months are *first tries* and you lack the tenacity to perfect your craft, you're working on pure talent alone.....

 

[KiwiMoose]

I'm one of those 'let's give this a go and see if it will work' kinda people. And if it doesn't I'm like "ah well it still looks ok". Thank you very much for your compliments.

Rimmed soap tray lined and ready to go - for a single layer rim. While that is CPOPping - Roger will be cutting down some shorter lengths of pipe for them to go into so I can make the inner part this afternoon/evening. We'll be fighting over kitchen space coz he's cooking a roast beef tonight.

 

[Jeboz]

'he's cooking a roast beef tonight.'

With all the trimmings ? Yummy - give him space! Although................. soap sprinkles on roast potato could look nice

 

[steffamarie]

Well. This is just not my challenge, guys. I've moved through the stages of grief and arrived squarely at acceptance. Let me bring you along on the journey I just took. First, a recap for those who are just joining us:

Rim #1 - failed before it began. Batter got too thick too fast and design was just not going to happen. Status: smashed into a loaf mold.

Rim #2 - too thick to use alone but too thin to cut. Fractured apart when manipulated. Status: confetti.

Rim #3 - thicker overall but the design was thin and only on the top. Fractured apart when manipulated even when cut thin. Status: smashed into an angry pile and put in a corner to think about what it has done.

And I undertook rim #4 today. I poured it into a much thicker slab and made sure the design went all the way through. I'm only moderately sure it gelled in the oven but I went to cut it while it was still warm anyway. Enlisted the help of my darling BF for both moral and actual soap support. Very quickly I found that the mud wire was bowing up in the middle and just not cutting evenly at all. Ryan suggested using a drawknife (like this) and converted an old hacksaw into a soap shaver. We weren't able to cut a rim just using the saw but instead treated it like a real drawknife and used it to shave away the back of the soap to make it an even thickness. We used two guides on either side of the slab to help.

If we could have stopped there, I think it would have been fine...but maybe it didn't gel after all because as soon as I went to roll it, it crumbled apart. I blasted it with a heat gun in a last-ditch attempt to make it work, but that didn't help. Even Ryan tried heating and curling and it just...cracked apart.

Status: mushed into individual molds for a "rustic" salvage.

So, having given this all I'm willing to give it, I think I can most assuredly say I am DONE with this challenge and I willingly accept defeat. I'm sure I have time to keep trying but frankly I just don't have the willpower lol

All the best of luck to you all and I'm very excited to see what everyone else comes up with!!!! Don't let my failure hinder your success - just because I can't seem to make it work definitely does not mean anything!!!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Well. This is just not my challenge, guys. I've moved through the stages of grief and arrived squarely at acceptance. Let me bring you along on the journey I just took. First, a recap for those who are just joining us:

Rim #1 - failed before it began. Batter got too thick too fast and design was just not going to happen. Status: smashed into a loaf mold.

Rim #2 - too thick to use alone but too thin to cut. Fractured apart when manipulated. Status: confetti.

Rim #3 - thicker overall but the design was thin and only on the top. Fractured apart when manipulated even when cut thin. Status: smashed into an angry pile and put in a corner to think about what it has done.

And I undertook rim #4 today. I poured it into a much thicker slab and made sure the design went all the way through. I'm only moderately sure it gelled in the oven but I went to cut it while it was still warm anyway. Enlisted the help of my darling BF for both moral and actual soap support. Very quickly I found that the mud wire was bowing up in the middle and just not cutting evenly at all. Ryan suggested using a drawknife (like this) and converted an old hacksaw into a soap shaver. We weren't able to cut a rim just using the saw but instead treated it like a real drawknife and used it to shave away the back of the soap to make it an even thickness. We used two guides on either side of the slab to help.

If we could have stopped there, I think it would have been fine...but maybe it didn't gel after all because as soon as I went to roll it, it crumbled apart. I blasted it with a heat gun in a last-ditch attempt to make it work, but that didn't help. Even Ryan tried heating and curling and it just...cracked apart.

Status: mushed into individual molds for a "rustic" salvage.

So, having given this all I'm willing to give it, I think I can most assuredly say I am DONE with this challenge and I willingly accept defeat. I'm sure I have time to keep trying but frankly I just don't have the willpower lol

All the best of luck to you all and I'm very excited to see what everyone else comes up with!!!! Don't let my failure hinder your success - just because I can't seem to make it work definitely does not mean anything!!!

Oh - so sorry to hear of all this Steffamarie. It must have been so frustrating! I'm already thinking about what I can to if my rim ( currently in the oven) fails as a rim, and I have decided I am going to use it to do a layered soap - cut in to slabs that will fit my silicone mold and sandwich it together (triple layered) with a plain colour in the middle.

I have unfortunately used an FO that discolours terribly, so my lovely colour scheme I had in mind has been aborted. If the FO didn't smell so gosh-darned yummy I would have been really annoyed, but it has been forgiven.

 

[earlene]

My attempts at rimmed soap in the past have been mostly, well, disasters, so before I signed up here I made a small batch the other day to test the recipe as well as my patience level. The recipe was a variation of the one @earlene generously shared in Post #21 (changes were due to what ingredients I have on hand). It was:

32% Olive Oil
27% Coconut Oil
21% HO Sunflower Oil
20% Shea Butter

2% (oil weight) glycerin

33% lye concentration
8% superfat
Finished the entire thing in one day rather than let the rim sit overnight

I upped the SF to 8% to test if it would help with pliability. The end result was mostly great: firstly, it was by far and away a lot more pliable than my previous attempts, and did not crack (Hooray! Thanks, earlene!). However, there is a slight tackiness to the rim so it sticks to things and has a sort of pitted look from where the soap touched things and was pulled away. It is definitely not smooth like earlene's woodsy soap.

Before the next attempt does anyone have any advice? I was thinking perhaps maybe one or more of the following adjustments might help:

- Reduce the SF
- Let it sit overnight rather than try to stuff fresh soap into the pipe (although, the tackiness is still there 2 days later, and I was worried it would dry out a little overnight and be less pliable)
- Perhaps not CPOP it. It did start to overheat a couple times and I had to frantically open the door and wave at it to cool it down. Maybe the tackiness is from that?
- Of course, the tackiness could be a result of the added glycerin, but earlene's soap is so smooth
- Or? Open to suggestions!

Thank you!

HowieRoll, has the tackiness diminished? I noticed that the added glycerin rim and the high Castor Oil rim were both softer to touch for a few days longer than most of my soaps exposed to the air. But after a few days, they seemed to feel normal.

I put a plastic wrap over the top of my soap mold after inserting the rim, so it wouldn't dry out overnight. That seemed to work for a day or two just fine. The extra glycerin doesn't really seem to dry out fast, but like you, I didn't want it to dry out too soon.

Have you made the new attempt yet? I wonder if the tackiness was a combination of the SF + glycerin. I'd reduce the SF to 3%, or the glycerin to maybe 1 - 1.5%. Just a guesstimate.

 

[earlene]

Well. This is just not my challenge, guys. I've moved through the stages of grief and arrived squarely at acceptance. Let me bring you along on the journey I just took. First, a recap for those who are just joining us:

Rim #1 - failed before it began. Batter got too thick too fast and design was just not going to happen. Status: smashed into a loaf mold.

Rim #2 - too thick to use alone but too thin to cut. Fractured apart when manipulated. Status: confetti.

Rim #3 - thicker overall but the design was thin and only on the top. Fractured apart when manipulated even when cut thin. Status: smashed into an angry pile and put in a corner to think about what it has done.

And I undertook rim #4 today. I poured it into a much thicker slab and made sure the design went all the way through. I'm only moderately sure it gelled in the oven but I went to cut it while it was still warm anyway. Enlisted the help of my darling BF for both moral and actual soap support. Very quickly I found that the mud wire was bowing up in the middle and just not cutting evenly at all. Ryan suggested using a drawknife (like this) and converted an old hacksaw into a soap shaver. We weren't able to cut a rim just using the saw but instead treated it like a real drawknife and used it to shave away the back of the soap to make it an even thickness. We used two guides on either side of the slab to help.

If we could have stopped there, I think it would have been fine...but maybe it didn't gel after all because as soon as I went to roll it, it crumbled apart. I blasted it with a heat gun in a last-ditch attempt to make it work, but that didn't help. Even Ryan tried heating and curling and it just...cracked apart.

Status: mushed into individual molds for a "rustic" salvage.

So, having given this all I'm willing to give it, I think I can most assuredly say I am DONE with this challenge and I willingly accept defeat. I'm sure I have time to keep trying but frankly I just don't have the willpower lol

All the best of luck to you all and I'm very excited to see what everyone else comes up with!!!! Don't let my failure hinder your success - just because I can't seem to make it work definitely does not mean anything!!!

steffamarie, I am so sorry this is giving you so much grief and frustration. Your bf certainly sounds very supportive. It was actually my husband who suggested the mudwire because I was going to make the wire knife like Tatsiana (Steso Soaps) did herself. He thought buying the mudwire would be easier. It certainly requires some practice to get the cut smooth, though, no doubt.

Remember that the challenge doesn't require round soap. You can also do a straight sided shape rimmed soap instead. My first rimmed soaps were not round. I think without that success behind me, I may never had persevered with the round rimmed soaps. And with the straight sides, you don't have to worry about bending the rim and thickness isn't quite as crucial.

 

[steffamarie]

No worries!! It’s been good for me to remember that soaping is my stress RELEASE, not something that contributes. So I’m content to sit back and ooh and ahh over everyone else’s

KiwiMoose, I’m crossing my fingers for you!!! I have faith!!