SMF December Challenge- high and low water batch

[dixiedragon]

Did one batch, it's pretty interesting. I think the variations might actually be more dramatic in a single color, so I'm going to try that next.

I did mine 50/50. When I mixed, the lye was 85 degrees and the oils were 110 (approximately). I added my FO (BB's White Tea and Ginger, behaved beautifully), my color (blended beforehand in about 1 T of olive oil). I stick blended for about 5 minutes, I think. I did not get even thin trace. Poured in my mold - 1 HPDE log mold and 2 small silicone 1 lb molds. Put in pre-warmed oven which was 150 degrees. After a while (not sure how long here, maybe an hour?), I didn't see gel and the oven had dropped to 100, so I turned the oven back on. Oven thermometer read 200 and I turned it off again. I had to go someplace so I left for about 2 hrs. I never saw gel, but the oven was still 100.

Anything I should do differently to get more dramatic affects?

 

[newbie]

You have to get gel no matter how long it takes because it's the difference in the gelling that gives the effect. I think you'd have to keep it under heat for longer so either in the oven for longer, on a heating pad or trying the water bath, which will transfer heat better to the soap. Low water gets very hard. The low water can take a long time to firm up in the mold but it can crack if you leave it too long after gelling.

Where are people running into the math problems? I must say a 50/50 split between the high and low I'd easiest math-wise, I think.

Best variation in color.... Hard to say. I think I got more using ultramarines than Micah's but I still got some with no as. I suspect pigments might give more variation than mica because of mica's particle nature but that's speculation.

 

[dixiedragon]

I'm pretty sure I got gel b/c I see some of the effect I was supposed to see. I'm wondering if I should try to gel longer or hotter?

 

[BlackDog]

Ok folks, help me trouble-shoot. Since I was confident this challenge would require more than one attempt, I kept it simple. I did a basic castile recipe with an easy spoon swirl. No color and no fragrance.

I CPOPed for an hour at about 150F (the lowest my oven goes) and wrapped in a blanket overnight. I just cut it at about 20 hours after pour.

The LW portion was almost too hard to cut, and because of the pressure while cutting, chunks of the HW portion came off (see photo).

I also don't see any of the "halo" effect.

Did I just wait too long to cut or did I do something wrong with the technique?

My recipe: 100% olive oil. HW: 1:2.4, LW: 1:1.4. I did not use any other additives.

 

[lionprincess00]

Ok folks, help me trouble-shoot. Since I was confident this challenge would require more than one attempt, I kept it simple. I did a basic castile recipe with an easy spoon swirl. No color and no fragrance.

I CPOPed for an hour at about 150F (the lowest my oven goes) and wrapped in a blanket overnight. I just cut it at about 20 hours after pour.

The LW portion was almost too hard to cut, and because of the pressure while cutting, chunks of the HW portion came off (see photo).

I also don't see any of the "halo" effect.

Did I just wait too long to cut or did I do something wrong with the technique?

My recipe: 100% olive oil. HW: 1:2.4, LW: 1:1.4. I did not use any other additives.

I only use low water and have to cut within 4-8 hours. If i cut low water over 12 hours later my bars tend to split. Newbie doesn't seem to have this issue like i do. Id recommend an early soapy session and cutting as soon as it can be unmolded.
No halo, maybe they both reached gel. Id try working early in the day and monitoring the high water for gel. Off heat immediately. Cut as soon as can unmold.

Just my 2 cent suggestions

 

[BlackDog]

I only use low water and have to cut within 4-8 hours. If i cut low water over 12 hours later my bars tend to split.

Oh wow! That is short! I normally cut between 28-36 hours so I thought 20 might be ok. wrong wrong wrong. Looks like I'll be waiting till the weekend for the next try. Thank you for the help!

 

[CaraBou]

Id try working early in the day and monitoring the high water for gel. Off heat immediately. Cut as soon as can unmold.

Those are words of the wise. I soaped late at night and couldn't stay up long enough to babysit the gel. I think both parts gelled; it's a beautiful soap but I did not get the intended effect. Live and learn!

Next weekend I have guests, so I'll be pushing the deadline before I can soap again.

 

[newbie]

I don't think every soap produces a halo. If you look at Auntie Clara'a ghost swirl, it's more the contrast in the gelled and ungelled batter that gives the look than a halo'ing effect. Since you didn't use colorants, I think that your soap turned out as AC knight have predicted. The only reason I don't have much trouble with cutting is because I have no patience at all and so tend to cut too soon, which works to my advantage with low water. If it gels, you have to cut soon because it's hard as a danged rock. I had no idea anyone had it in them to wait 36 hours to cut!!

Here is someone who used no colorants except the slight darkening from using tea. Not much halo'ing at all but they did get a touch more variation because of the soap "trapped"
Within the leaf.

http://www.magstatt.com/?p=669

 

[dibbles]

The soap I made without color added didn't have a halo. There was a variation in the color. I am sure both high and low water parts gelled. So, just to understand; we don't want both parts to gel?

 

[newbie]

Personally when I have done this combo, my impression is that the low water part does not gel the same way. I have made just low water soaps that have clearly heated and gelled but it is much different than a high water batter. The low water doesn't get nearly so soft nor does it get as translucent while in gel. I don't know about the temp differences but my impression is that high water gets far hotter. I guess that leads me to think the low water may gel at lower temps and go first, then the high water part goes. If you take your soap through gel phase, which you should be able to tell by looking, that should do the trick. You can't control the temps such that you can get one section to go and the other not to. It's just the difference in gelling temps and speed that give the effect.

I believe Auntie Clara speculates that high water soaps gels at lower temps. What I wrote above is just my speculation based on what I feel for temps with my hand.

I will say that it appears to me that the low water doesn't gel when I look at the soap. The low water stays firm and lighter but it undoubtedly is doing its own thing. Take the soap through gel phase and all should be good. I'm sorry if I confused people.

 

[DeeAnna]

No speculation about it -- high water soaps really do go into gel at a lower temperature than low water soaps. Once in gel, high water soaps will stay that way for a longer time than low water soaps.

That all seems contrary to "common sense" but that's the way soap chemistry often is. I can give you an explanation of why this is true, but the answer is super-geeky, so I'm just going to ask you to take me on faith about that at the moment.

The gel state of soap is not anything magic -- it's just a simple physical change of state from a solid form to a vaseline-y semi-liquid form simply due to the heat it experiences. The heat can be created by the soap itself when it is saponifying or the heat can be added externally from your oven, a heating pad, or whatever.

The point of Auntie Clara's experiments is that she added enough extra heat to make sure the high water soap got hot enough to gel ... and stayed that way long enough for the high and low water soaps to begin to look distinctively different.

 

[dibbles]

Thank you Newbie. I think the confusion re gel phase is mine. When I was reading AC's crop circle blog post, it seemed that she believed both high and low water parts gelled. I'm pretty sure both parts of my batter gelled, but the low water was largely hidden and I wasn't using a colorant (except a small amount on the top), so I'm not absolutely positive. I will be trying again, probably Friday or over the weekend and wanted to know if I should be trying to prevent either part from gel phase. But, soap will do what soap will do and I'll just go with whatever happens. I don't have too much experience with CPOP but would like to get that figured out as well. Though I might go with the heating pad to start next round and see how that works too.

 

[dibbles]

DeeAnna, it looks like we were posting at the same time. Thanks for your input as well!

 

[Obsidian]

Are you guys seeing more color difference with uncolored or colored soap? I'm really thinking about trying this again but I'm not sure what to do. My last batch was colored copper and the darker bits are a pinky flesh color.

 

[Steve85569]

I just cut a colored batch - don't even ask how many tries this is - and WOW!!!
The differences between the high and low water soaps from the same batter and coloring are amazing!
I did two colors and two waters. The only way I could tell that both water contents gelled was the trace of glycerine on both when I cut.
I will refrain from posting pictures for now. I think I just cut my entry soap!

There was a question earlier about what was the problem with the math, heat etc. I know for me all of the trouble I had with this challenge came from a lack of experience and expertice. But that is exactly why I signed on for the challenge! I is the challenge of learning and I learn quite a lot by making mistakes ( DW says I know a lot guess what that says). Watching someone with lots of experience make soap is akin to stepping in to my work place and thinking "what he is doing is simple. Anyone can do that." Wrong. It takes practice and planning.

Several take aways for me include.
Don't trust an FO to behave the same at different water concentrations.
Prep carefully. Set everything up mentally first. Then check when set up is done that it is really going to work as planned.
Double check any manual calculations. Do not assume.
Am I really making the same thing that soapcalc calculated or did I leave something out? Check everything. Twice.

 

[Obsidian]

I just poured attempt #2. Its 2 parts low water, 1 part high water in a simple ITPS. I tried something a little different, I used discoloring EO's, mostly lemongrass & 5x orange with a little ginger lime FO to tame down the sharp citrus. Its tucked away in the oven now

 

[Judiraz]

Below is a picture of an experiment I did right after I read the Ghost Swirl article.
I had to use a heating pad for the first time to make sure I gelled and I watched it like a hawk. Both high & low gelled but as DeeAnna said, they gelled differently. High water was markedly translucent and more liquid. The low water also gelled, but looked more opaque. I see more difference in this batch then the two colored ones I've tried so far.

 

[Saponista]

In itching to get a chance to soap, I've had too many craft fairs recently. Hopefully Friday will be the day. I'm so excited to try this technique!

This is an example of the difference between high and low water, I was attempting to make a feather swirl with a round embed to look like a peacock feather and ran out of uncoloured batter so off the top of my head made up more, but only had the full water recipe in my head. I didn't think it would make much difference at the time, but as you can see the cream and white sections are drastically different simply due to the water difference. Needless to say I messed up the whole soap while messing around doing this as the soap set on my divider and when I pulled it out the whole thing got mushed into a distorted mess. I think it is a grey example of high/low water difference though.

 

[dibbles]

Below is a picture of an experiment I did right after I read the Ghost Swirl article.

That is lovely looking soap!

 

[songwind]

Do both portions have to gel? It seems like if the high water section gelled and the low water did not it would make them stand out even more.