Slow trace, cure time, and sodium lactate

[emi]

Dearest Soapers,
I'm wanting to try making a sea sponge soap which would require a slow trace recipe. I've done some reading including Modern Soap Making's "How to control trace in CP Soapmaking" and learned that if I create a recipe with higher unsaturated oils ratio and soap cool, I have a better chance at slow trace. Correct so far? The additives would be lavender and tea tree E/O, some natural mica, titanium dioxide. Would around 30/70 sat/unsat be good for slow trace recipe, or is that too much unsat?

I am hoping to have these ready by Christmas just for family (and tell them to wait at least a week before using them!). I know using more water helps slow trace, but increases cure time so I was planning on staying around 33% lye concentration. I know that olive oil soap takes extra long to cure, but is that true for all "soft" oils or are there other unsaturated "soft" oils that do not take extra long to cure?

I know sodium lactate hardens soap. Will that accelerate trace and/or shorten cure time?

I'm sorry for all the questions. I've read so many threads/articles and can't quite find the answer to my questions. I'd appreciate any advise! Thanks in advance! -emi

 

[lsg]

This from Soap Queen, " From my experience the slowest-moving oils are canola oil, pure olive oil and sweet almond oil. To create a recipe that gives you lots of time to swirl, I recommend formulating your recipe with about 60% slow moving oils. "

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-...e-tips-swirling-cold-process-soap/#more-58320

 

[DeeAnna]

There are all kinds of theories out there about how to increase the working time -- aka "time to trace."

Some people use a high oleic recipe (aka recipe high in liquid fats such as olive) and a fairly high water content, say 28% lye concentration, and soap at low temps. Others get good results from using a recipe high in lard with their usual lye concentration (maybe 33%) and lukewarm temps.

But recipe isn't everything. Other factors that help give you more time to work --

Choose a scent that does not accelerate saponification.

Minimize the use of solid additives, because they can thicken the batter. Don't overdo the use of pigmented colors for the same reason. Titanium dioxide is a big one for thickening soap batter.

Stick blend for as little total time as possible. My usual is about 5 seconds or less of SB'ing to emulsion. This is broken up into several short bursts separated by hand stirring. If I'm doing colors, I might SB another second or 2 to mix each color. Remember you can always SB more if you need it, but you can't take away too much SB'ing if you overdo.

Stop SB'ing when the soap batter is at a stable emulsion, not at trace. This takes a bit of practice, because a stable emulsion is trickier to see than full-on trace, even light trace. One thing I've noticed about my soap batter at emulsion is the surface of the soap batter can change from super liquidy shiny to slightly matte.

"...I know that olive oil soap takes extra long to cure, but is that true for all "soft" oils or are there other unsaturated "soft" oils that do not take extra long to cure?..."

If you follow Soap Queen's suggestions and use olive or other high-oleic oil for the main liquid fat, you'd only have 60% olive oil with 40% other fats. That's not necessarily going to give you a soap that needs a long cure time, unless the other 40% are also high-oleic fats. But add maybe 10% coconut and 30% palm or lard, and the soap might perform well after a month of cure.

 

[emi]

Thank you so much for the suggestions. I'm still a beginner, made maybe 20-30 batches, but I think I'm starting to be able to tell between emulsion and trace. I used to always be afraid of "false trace" and not blending enough, but now I'm realizing it really isn't necessary to ST so much before I can pour and swirl. I also forgot about titanium dioxide accelerating trace! I'll put a recipe together and run it by the forum. Thank you again for all your help! -emi

 

[Candybee]

I have a bastile soap I make that is really slow to trace. Its 75-80% olive oil with a bit of CO, Almond, and castor in the recipe too. I have loads of time to do nice swirls with multiple colors.

I learned some time ago for soaps I want to do swirls with to simply emulsify the batter making sure all ingredients are fully incorporated then splitting the batter to color. I don't even bother with trace for my colored soaps anymore. I found as long as the batter is fully emulsified it will still saponify without seperation.

 

[emi]

I'm trying to form a CP recipe that will be slow trace and won't take more than 4-6 weeks to cure. I'm aiming for a rich, conditioning bar to put into a sea sponge. I think I'm confused about "unsaturated" not necessarily meaning "liquid" oils? I'm now noticing that I'm being advised to use "60% slow moving oils". So that doesn't necessarily mean to use only 60% liquid oils? What if I want to use 12% castor oil for bubbliness? Should I count that as part of the 60% or not? Should I even be paying attention to the sat/unsat ratio?

I put the below recipe together using 60% "soft" or liquid at room temp oils but the sat/unsat ratio came out to 28/72.

almond 30%
castor 12%
olive 18%
coconut oil 20%
coco butter 15%
shea 5%

SF 5%
lye conc 33%
sat/unsat 28/72

Is that ok or should I tweak the numbers until I get to 40/60 on the sat/unsat ratio on the calculator like below?

almond 22%
castor 12%
olive 5%
cocoa butter 21%
shea butter 20%
coconut oil 20%

5% super fat
33% lye conc
sat/unsat 40/60

 

[Candybee]

With those high % of CO and cocoa butter you are going to end up with a very high cleansing and low conditioning bar. I would lower several of those oils like the castor, almond, cocoa butter, shea, even the coconut and raise your olive oil a lot higher.

Slow trace oils are fats/oils that slow down trace. They are not necesarily liquid oils. Plus, I think you may be confusing curing speed with slow tracing oils. For example, olive oil may help slow down trace but only if it is a high enough % of your total oil recipe. A high olive oil soap or any soap for that matter will cure and be ready to use in 4-8 weeks. Depends on how conditioning you like your soap. Just think the longer the cure the more conditioning the soap. Curing also helps with better suds and the liquids to evaporate giving you a more longer lasting bar. You can cure a 100% olive oil bar in increments of 6 weeks, 6 months, 1 yr, 2 yrs, and see the difference yourself.

Since you won't be making a 100% olive oil soap I would not worry about the cure time. 4-8 weeks should be fine for most soaps.

If you want to use those oils to make a slow tracing conditioning soap I would change my % something like this:

olive oil 40-80%
coconut 10-20%
shea 10-15%
cocoa butter 5% or less or eliminate completely
almond 5%
castor 5-10%

Using those % you could use this as an example for a very conditioning and mild soap:
olive oil 60%
coconut oil 10%
shea 15%
castor 10%
almond 5%

 

[emi]

Thank you so much for the suggested recipes! I'm going to try the recipe without the coco butter like you say exactly. I'm very much looking forward to this recipe because I noticed that when I plugged it into the calculator (soapmakingfriend), some of the "recipe properties" are outside of the range it gives as "recommended". Up until now anytime I put together a recipe I would tweak the amounts of each oil until the values were always within all the ranges it gave. I was under the impression that anything outside of those ranges would turn out a bad soap and that those ranges were the highest and lowest of what would work. Getting this suggestion from an experienced person like yourself gives me permission to go outside of those ranges! The "recommended" cleansing range is 12-22 and conditioning is 44-69. The recipe I made up that I showed earlier in thread has a cleanings value of 13 and a conditioning value of 64. So I thought I was at the limits of having a low cleaning and high conditioning bar. Your recipe hits both numbers out of the park! Cleaning is 7 and conditioning is 73! But now I'm realizing that a Bastille bar is all olive which I've never made but I know are common and much loved and successful bars of soap. I plugged it a 100% olive oil in to the calculator and those values are mostly out of the recommended ranges with a cleaning of zero. So thank you for this recipe. I just got myself a 42 oz mold and some new micas so I'm going to try a swirl design using this recipe, and if all goes well I'll get to my sea sponges next!

 

[Candybee]

I know what you mean. I was the same way at first thinking I had to stay within the range listed on the calc. But when it comes to some soaps they are all over the place. Castile and salt bars come to mind. What I look at now are the fatty acid profiles. An experienced soaper gave me some great advice once. Don't go over 15 for your linoleic and don't go over 70 for your iodine level. So when I am using certain oils that are say high in linoleic like grapeseed or regular sunflower oil I watch to make sure the linoleic number is 15 or under. I love the way a soap feels when the linoleic is around 10-15. Simply divinely conditioning and makes my skin so soft! Sunflower oil is one of my favorite soaping oils. Not only is it high in linoleic but it makes my skin feel so soft and is full of natural vitamins A and E which my skin loves. But I can't use more than 10-15% in my recipes. I'm talking about regular sunflower oil, NOT high oleic. They have different fatty acid profiles.

On the other hand a salt bar that is high in coconut oil is gonna register is a very high cleansing. High cleansing can make a bar too harsh for my skin. But you use a high superfat when making a salt bar and that can make a huge difference in creating a bar that is more moisturizing.