Should i give up?

[allane]

I am trying to get the saponification value for a fat that is not on any soap calculator. Allanblackia fat acts like no other fat so all the saponification values I tried were by scientists who are not soap makers and are more interested in its use in food. Unilever uses it in margarine.

I have used it in soap in many percentages and combinations and it surprises me every time. Here are a few observations. High stearic acid and oleic acid makes a good transparent soap.

On its own, it gives virtually no lather but gives abundant lather with other oils. As a single oil soap, it floats on water. Kept at ambient temperature will keep well for years. (I have samples) It gets as hard as stearic acid the longer it stays.

Anybody heard of this butter and can they help with my calculations? Will send samples if needed. Thanks.

Grace

 

[LunaSkye]

http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379317781_Adubofuor et al.pdf

I don't know if this will help, but the pdf had an interesting paragraph on pg 3 on the preperation of allanblackia oil in soap-making. The scientists used 100g of allenblackia oil and mixed it with a 20mL solution that contained 23.5% NaOH. My math is rusty (-_-), but I believe that the solution may have used 4.7 g of NaOH. Hence, .047g of NaOH is needed for every gram of allenblackia used.

Other articles were found here:
http://www.allanblackiapartners.org/content/research-0

Have a good night.

 

[allane]

Thanks for your reply Lunaskye. The point is that I am in Ghana where the seeds are extremely abundant. I have been working with Adubobuor et al who you linked with. They are more into food sciences so when it comes to cosmetics, they have no clue. I am still giving them most of my observations but will be grateful for input from people in cosmetics.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Can you find out how many molecules there are per gram of the oil?

 

[cherrycoke216]

Hey I remember this special oil name...a quick forum search and I see that you describe this oil/ butter characteristic. I'm interested in it. I have a local soap supplier might be able to import it. Do you grow this thing or you too have to order it from supplier?

ETA:Also, does Ghana people speak French? My local soap supplier has a French brand in her shop. I checked and didn't see this oil name. But maybe allanblackia oil has a French name other than allanblackia?
And if you like, buy a book by Kevin Dunn. It's the newer one. He teaches how to titrate an oil.

If this is against forum regulations, please let me know. And I'll direct message her.

 

[SaltedFig]

I am trying to get the saponification value for a fat that is not on any soap calculator. Allanblackia fat acts like no other fat so all the saponification values I tried were by scientists who are not soap makers and are more interested in its use in food. Unilever uses it in margarine.
...
Anybody heard of this butter and can they help with my calculations? Will send samples if needed. Thanks.

Grace

Hi Grace,

There's a company in Britain that sells Allanblackia for soaping, and they quote a SAP value of 0.140 for NaOH and 0.197 for KOH.

They've got a fair bit of information (melting point, comments on acid content etc.), so you may have some luck calling them (I've sent you a PM).

And, on a more general note, can I post their details here?

Cheers.

 

[allane]

Hey I remember this special oil name...a quick forum search and I see that you describe this oil/ butter characteristic. I'm interested in it. I have a local soap supplier might be able to import it. Do you grow this thing or you too have to order it from supplier?

ETA:Also, does Ghana people speak French? My local soap supplier has a French brand in her shop. I checked and didn't see this oil name. But maybe allanblackia oil has a French name other than allanblackia?
And if you like, buy a book by Kevin Dunn. It's the newer one. He teaches how to titrate an oil.

If this is against forum regulations, please let me know. And I'll direct message her.

We speak English in Ghana. I can check for the French name if available but we have about four local names. This is a big tree in the forest and the pod has to fall on the ground before you can collect. It is not mature if still on the tree.

Can you find out how many molecules there are per gram of the oil?

Craig I will send a message to find out how many molecules per gram. Chemistry and I don't get along very well.

 

[penelopejane]

Hi Grace,

There's a company in Britain that sells Allanblackia for soaping, and they quote a SAP value of 0.140 for NaOH and 0.197 for KOH.

They've got a fair bit of information (melting point, comments on acid content etc.), so you may have some luck calling them (I've sent you a PM).

And, on a more general note, can I post their details here?

Cheers.

Yes please.

 

[Susie]

There is nothing in the rules against posting company details if you are not bashing them or advertising for them. This seems to me to just be reporting the facts.

Here are the rules: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56837

 

[cmzaha]

I would go with the Sap that SaltedFig posted above, at least to start with in a test batch and see how it works. Soap is very forgiving, and sap values, at best, are a range not exact. You can test for actual SAP, but I admit I am not going to go through the trouble. LOL, I will save that for DeeAnna , and I do not have a balance scale

On Wiki, which I do not take a gospel, lists KOH sap at 200 so I would go with 0.143 for NaOh since soap calc matches that value to the KOH of 200. Scientific I am not.....:headbanging:

 

[allane]

I have tried these numbers, unfortunately the soap misbehaves at a higher level of allanblackia (AB). The percentage to make a hard wonderful moisturizing soap is if it is used at less than one percent of oils. The only exception is transparent soap where more than 40% makes a hard bar transparent soap. Actually I am about to pull out all the few hairs I have on my head !

 

[cherrycoke216]

It's because of the super high stearic acid so it misbehave. It might also be the oils available in Ghana are high in stearic acid, too. So you might want to add a little bit liquid/ soft oils like sunflower,safflower, or olive oil to slow the trace time.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I have tried these [saponification] numbers, unfortunately the soap misbehaves at a higher level of allanblackia (AB)...."

I guess I don't understand the connection. Why would the sap value of allenblackia have anything to do with the other properties of allenblackia as used in soap? All the sap value tells you is how much NaOH that this ingredient will consume when it's combined with lye. It doesn't tell you anything else about the ingredient.

If you look at rosin (colophony), for example, the NaOH sap value is 0.132. If you compare that to the sap values for typical soaping fats, it's not greatly out of line. But rosin is a mofo to soap with and makes an unusual soap.

If an NaOH sap value of 0.142 for this ingredient is consistently resulting in a lye-heavy or overly fat-heavy soap, then it might make sense to question whether that value is accurate for soaping. The sap value measured by competent food scientists is going to be pretty much the same as measured by competent soap scientists. It's a standardized test.

 

[allane]

Oh DeAnne when I say the soap misbehaves, I mean it gets to be extremely hard. Just like using a high percentage of stearic acid. Funny enough, olive oil is the most expensive oil here so that is out. I use mostly coconut, pko, Shea, cocoa butter all easily available. This looks like I may have to add the more expensive olive oil to my soaps. Thanks to all for your suggestions.

 

[cherrycoke216]

Oh DeAnne when I say the soap misbehaves, I mean it gets to be extremely hard. Just like using a high percentage of stearic acid. Funny enough, olive oil is the most expensive oil here so that is out. I use mostly coconut, pko, Shea, cocoa butter all easily available. This looks like I may have to add the more expensive olive oil to my soaps. Thanks to all for your suggestions.

Are you using cold process or hot process?
You might try with cheaper soft oils first. Because all your oils are solid in room temperature ( though might not be in Ghana weather ), adding 10-50% to see and compare the difference.
Some people don't like the slime gooey snotty olive soap. So if you try it, start with lower percentage. This will be more similar to your original soap. If you like it, then up the percentage. And compare the two.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I use mostly coconut, pko, Shea, cocoa butter ...."

I agree with CherryCoke.

Shea and cocoa butter are roughly similar to allenblackia according to the paper you have been mentioning -- very high in stearic and/or palmitic. If you want your soap to not be so hard, be more soluble in water, and have a more balanced fatty acid profile, it might be good to use less of these ingredients.

Any liquid oil would be good, although I'd prefer the high oleic oils -- olive, avocado, high oleic sunflower, HO safflower, HO canola, etc. -- over the high linoleic oils. But if you can't get the oleic oils, then I'd certainly look at the linoleic ones.

 

[SaltedFig]

There is nothing in the rules against posting company details if you are not bashing them or advertising for them. This seems to me to just be reporting the facts.

Here are the rules: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56837

Thanks Susie

Yes please.

The company is SheaButter Cottage, in Reading England.

Akua's website is https://www.sheabuttercottage.com/ABOUT_US.html and the Allanblackia is available in Exotic Butters.

 

[Katherine1121]

The Sage just added SAP values for Allanblackia Butter to their lye calculator!

 

[shunt2011]

The Sage just added SAP values for Allanblackia Butter to their lye calculator!

This post is from 2017. The OP hasn’t been here in a couple years.

 

[Katherine1121]

This post is from 2017. The OP hasn’t been here in a couple years.

I'm sorry but I don't know what "OP" means... I did a search on this forum for allanblackia because I also didn't know how I should otherwise let others know that, after having sent a request to several "lye calculator" sites requesting that the SAPs and fatty acid composition for allanblackia butter be added to their calculator, The Sage customer support is who responded... I thought that posting this somewhere was better than not posting the information at all... I'm the first person to admit that I'm not the most computer/blog/forum savvy person... what would've been the better way?