Newb here playing with lye percentages myself. I'm trying to emulate hard pucks like vintage Williams, DR Harris, Mitchel's Wool Fat, old formula AOS, and Czech and Speake, etc. In the very basic formulation I'm playing with (65% tallow, 25% stearic acid, 10% coconut oil) a 60% KOH/40% NaOH lye split is too soft for what I'm looking for. 60/40 the other way was still a bit soft. While 70-30 is hard enough, making lathering a bit more of a challenge that I'd like. I might try 65 NaOH/35 KOH. Plus, I'd like a bit more moisturizing. I'm thinking of bumping the tallow and reducing the stearic by 2.5% each to see if that makes any difference.
Shaving soap with NAOH and KOH?
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Newb here playing with lye percentages myself. I'm trying to emulate hard pucks like vintage Williams, DR Harris, Mitchel's Wool Fat, old formula AOS, and Czech and Speake, etc. In the very basic formulation I'm playing with (65% tallow, 25% stearic acid, 10% coconut oil) a 60% KOH/40% NaOH lye split is too soft for what I'm looking for. 60/40 the other way was still a bit soft. While 70-30 is hard enough, making lathering a bit more of a challenge that I'd like. I might try 65 NaOH/35 KOH. Plus, I'd like a bit more moisturizing. I'm thinking of bumping the tallow and reducing the stearic by 2.5% each to see if that makes any difference.
Thank you kindly!
Re: replacing clay with glycerin: actually, my formula already contains a goodly amount of extra/added glycerin in addition to the naturally occurring amount of glycerin which already exists as a byproduct of the saponification reaction. Taken together, I suppose I would guestimate that my formula contains a total of at least 20 to 25% glycerin already.
I'm just afraid of what adding more glycerin might do to the soap, i.e., I would hate for it to start weeping like a salt bar or sweating like an M&P glycerin soap, or becoming softer/stickier in texture (it's normal 'feel' is hard, and pleasantly dry and velvety).
Re: reformulation: Hmmm... I don't know, wetshavingproducts.... I must be honest.....just the thought of going back to the drawing board to overhaul my entire formula in order to compensate for omitting only one ingredient- the clay- makes me feel like running for the hills like a crazed madwoman! :crazy:
lol I can imagine it now..... someone will find me lying half-conscious under a tree muttering over and over again, 'no clay, no clay,.......must... get... rid.. of... clay..." lol It's just that I worked so hard on it to get it to where hubby says he absolutely loves everything about it, even if he has to apply a little elbow grease at the beginning to get the lather going (my 'wet-shaving afficianado' tester said the same to me as well).
I guess if I ever decided to market/sell my shave soap to the public, I might think differently and put the extra effort in, but since my only target market is my very spoilt, but sweet hubby (imagine having a soap designed especially for you! lol), the only thing I have an enthusiastic mind and will to improve upon for now is that ever illusive 'ease of lather' factor by introducing varying amounts of KOH into my formula. I'll let y'all know how that goes!
IrishLass
Once you know what the industry standard is you have lots of room to play. I doubt 2.5% is going to make much of a difference, more likely to make a difference is your additives. Look for additives that make a difference to conditioning.
IrishLass Thank you for doing that experiment, now I know I am not going to take out my clay... LOL
If it's not broke, don't fix it. 8)
Hubby tried my clay-less shave soap again this morning just to see whether or not he would get the same results he got from it during yesterday's shave, and sure enough, he wasn't imagining things- he got the same exact, undesirable results today that he got yesterday. The clay-less soap has now been decisively ejected from his shaving mug in favor of the one made with clay.
I made my experimental 90% NaOH/10% KOH test batch of my regular shave soap formula this evening (with the clay, of course
). I can hardly wait for it to cure so hubby can test it out! I'm also going to try making another test batch of the same, but with 80% NaOH and 20% KOH.IrishLass
LBussy
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No dirt in my shaving soap please!
Aside from reading the thread Songwind started, try this: 52% Stearic, 48% Coconut, KOH only, 5% superfat. HP only (or do take a video with sound so we can hear you swearing!). Let someone experienced with shaving soaps try it and start from there. That will give you the quickest/easiest example of what can be a good shaving soap and let you see all of the properties that are so different from a cleansing soap.
Starting with that I actually found I could go with less foam so I started subbing out the coconut for others, but that basic formula is so much better than what you can buy in a store and so simple to whip up, it's ridiculous.
No it won't make a puck, we call it a "croap", a cross between a cream and a soap. Typically one would load a wet brush for 20-30 seconds and then lather in a bowl.
Also, and please excuse me if it sounds like a beginner lecturing experienced soapers but this is an observation: The Songwind thread is an EXCELLENT example of where folks go wrong by overthinking it. I know there's folks on here who may make a business of creating and selling fantastic soaps. If you are that person then I'm pleased to have folks like you around to learn from. If I may be so bold though: don't over-think this. Don't add clay, oatmeal, honey, seaweed, or oil of unicorn. Understand this is not soap that is supposed to be in a pretty shape, a pretty color, or have magical properties. It's a vital part of a man's grooming regimen and the first thing we want is a shaving soap that lets us shave. Get that down and then "enhance" as needed.
Being a HP soap it really lends itself well to a small/quick batch. I can make a 100g batch and shave with it that day. Attached is the recipe for the very first soap I made inspired by the same information that lead to Sonwind's post. If that was the only soap ever available for the rest of my life, I'd be okay.
ETA: I only saw the first page when I wrote this - I failed to see that it's 5 pages long. I still earnestly believe every bit of what I wrote however. IrishLass, if my dearest made me soap I would indeed count myself a lucky man. She does not (I'll still keep her!) so this is what I learned in a few years of really learning about (commercial) shaving soaps. I agree, no need to send yourself off the deep end by trying to remove clay because some moron (me) said no dirt. Your recipe works and that's awesome. My comments were more toward someone just taking on a shaving soap.
View attachment MdeC Clone.pdf
Aside from reading the thread Songwind started, try this: 52% Stearic, 48% Coconut, KOH only, 5% superfat. HP only (or do take a video with sound so we can hear you swearing!). Let someone experienced with shaving soaps try it and start from there. That will give you the quickest/easiest example of what can be a good shaving soap and let you see all of the properties that are so different from a cleansing soap.
Starting with that I actually found I could go with less foam so I started subbing out the coconut for others, but that basic formula is so much better than what you can buy in a store and so simple to whip up, it's ridiculous.
No it won't make a puck, we call it a "croap", a cross between a cream and a soap. Typically one would load a wet brush for 20-30 seconds and then lather in a bowl.
Also, and please excuse me if it sounds like a beginner lecturing experienced soapers but this is an observation: The Songwind thread is an EXCELLENT example of where folks go wrong by overthinking it. I know there's folks on here who may make a business of creating and selling fantastic soaps. If you are that person then I'm pleased to have folks like you around to learn from. If I may be so bold though: don't over-think this. Don't add clay, oatmeal, honey, seaweed, or oil of unicorn. Understand this is not soap that is supposed to be in a pretty shape, a pretty color, or have magical properties. It's a vital part of a man's grooming regimen and the first thing we want is a shaving soap that lets us shave. Get that down and then "enhance" as needed.
Being a HP soap it really lends itself well to a small/quick batch. I can make a 100g batch and shave with it that day. Attached is the recipe for the very first soap I made inspired by the same information that lead to Sonwind's post. If that was the only soap ever available for the rest of my life, I'd be okay.
ETA: I only saw the first page when I wrote this - I failed to see that it's 5 pages long. I still earnestly believe every bit of what I wrote however. IrishLass, if my dearest made me soap I would indeed count myself a lucky man. She does not (I'll still keep her!) so this is what I learned in a few years of really learning about (commercial) shaving soaps. I agree, no need to send yourself off the deep end by trying to remove clay because some moron (me) said no dirt. Your recipe works and that's awesome. My comments were more toward someone just taking on a shaving soap.
View attachment MdeC Clone.pdf
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LOL Actually, Songwind's recipe is still on my 'must make' roster, seeing as how I love to experiment with interesting soaps and/or techniques that I've never tried before.
I thought Songwind's thread was amazing, too! I don't know if hubby will like the resulting soap or not, but he's always wonderful about being game enough to at least try whatever I make for him (whether it be soap or food). Sometimes it works out great........ and sometimes.....well.... not so great. lol But he's always willing to try. I'll make sure to post my results with Songwind's recipe!
All I can say is that I'm soooo glad I read your post all the way down to the very bottom. lol I shall remove my clay-less bar out of its slingshot and go put it safely away back in its box now.
By the way, I love the passion you have for shave soap, and I found your imput to be very helpful, even if we don't agree upon the addition of clay.
The longer I've made soap, the more and more I've come to appreciate how so much can depend on individual preference and skin-type, i.e., what works fantastic for one doesn't always necessarily work as fantastically for another.
I wonder, too, how much the overall hairiness of a man factors into the equation. Although my hubby needs to shave everyday or else he turns into a "scruffy looking nerf-herder" (one of my favorite Princess Leia lines from The Empire Strikes Back), he not hairy enough to grow an appreciably ample beard. Maybe that plays a part, too? Any thoughts?
IrishLass
LBussy
Well-Known Member
Even if your hubby does not like it, you will know what many people consider a standard. It's an emulation of Martin de Candre shaving soap base and people pay $60+ a tub for it. Of course if you look on the Shaving forums, some people swear by Arko too so there's definitely no accounting for taste.
I would not seek out Arko, but if you happen across a stick - grab it just for a reference. Fantastic lather, horrible smell (well, some people like it). It's a very good tallow-based shaving soap.
I have my own Irish Lass here and I'd try anything she put in front of me.
Yeah pretty sure I heard some guns cocking. Sometimes my enthusiasm in real life comes off as just plain nasty in print so I read it over a few times before posting. It's still probably a lot less smooth than I would have liked.All I can say is that I'm soooo glad I read your post all the way down to the very bottom. lol I shall remove my clay-less bar out of its slingshot and go put it safely away back in its box now.
Love me some Star Wars!
My beard is ... well, ample. I am a fur bearing mammal. If steel wool ever became scarce I would be in demand for shearing. I am sure I represent a small percentage of really thick beard growing people but that may (or may not) mean I represent a worst case. It seems like it sometimes. There's folks out there who are perfectly happy with melt and pour "artisan shaving soap" and then there's me who unfortunately has sensitive skin AND a thick beard.
I've also started shaving with straights and they have a way of let's say highlighting mistakes, shortcomings and carelessness.
wetshavingproducts
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I wonder, too, how much the overall hairiness of a man factors into the equation. Although my hubby needs to shave everyday or else he turns into a "scruffy looking nerf-herder" (one of my favorite Princess Leia lines from The Empire Strikes Back), he not hairy enough to grow an appreciably ample beard. Maybe that plays a part, too? Any thoughts?
IrishLass
Absolutely unrelated to soap. Completely relevant and a key factor in choosing a razor and does factor into brush preference, but I've never heard anyone relate beard to shave soap.
Information and conclusions based upon my experiences so far in life.
wetshavingproducts
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At least steer her towards Tabac.
The scent may be polarizing, but apparently Tabac is famous for it. Read a blog post about fragrance oils and Tabac was mentioned as a pioneer in men's fragrances. Who knew!I'd like to figure out a Tabac dupe and change that "old man" scent.
LBussy
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Over the last several years I've never tried Tabac somehow. I'll have to remember to add it to my next order from one of my suppliers. I do enjoy reading what people say about it though
Or try Mitchell's Wool Fat! Awesome commercial soap. A little hard to lather until you learn its tricks.
As for hairiness I have one customer who tells me his beard is also made of steel but finds my shaving soap works for him and it does have dirt in it
As for hairiness I have one customer who tells me his beard is also made of steel but finds my shaving soap works for him and it does have dirt
in it
LBussy
Well-Known Member
It's "on the list" to try, although I'm afraid I might be disappointed after using soaps with an appreciable amount of lanolin in them.
I do find a soap can have a positive impact on tougher beards. A real soap performs better than a commercial detergent in that respect because of the difference in pH. Just like hair straighteners, curl solutions, and chemical depilatory solutions soften hair (or dissolve them), the higher pH of real shaving soap definitely softens the hair shaft if allowed to work just a bit. I commonly do a quick light load, and then lay that on my face to work while I do a real brush load and lather building.As for hairiness I have one customer who tells me his beard is also made of steel but finds my shaving soap works for him and it does have dirt
Has nothing to do with dirt though.
The oldest razor I shave with was made circa 1865. I will not use a soap with clay near them. I might experiment with a DE but clay and my straights will not cross paths. If you consider bentonite regularly runs in the 0.3µ range and the diamond lapping spray we use to finish our razors is 0.1µ, there's just no reason to risk it and every reason to believe it could be a bad thing.
Great information. I have to admit I'm one of those that are going the way of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" I get regularly good reviews from people on Badger & Blade in fact I used several as test subjects to fine tune the soap.
I thought Mitchells was tallow and lanolin? I must be losing my mind. I have tried it (yes I'm a wet shave - DE although I have used shavettes) and I really liked it.
I thought Mitchells was tallow and lanolin? I must be losing my mind. I have tried it (yes I'm a wet shave - DE although I have used shavettes) and I really liked it.
LBussy
Well-Known Member
I agree - but that has to go for me too. :grin:
I assumed it was - but the soap I have with lanolin REALLY leaves a lot of softness behind and I ass-u-me that there's no way a puck will leave the same amount of lanolin as a soft soap.
Here's the ingredients from a quick Google:
I'm just not feeling the love here ... Lanolin is listed after all the EO/FO's and they should be what ... 5% total max? Lots of stuff in there and now that I see it I don't want it on my face a whole bunch anymore.
If you use anything more than 5% you lose your lather. Lanolin is one of those that less is better.
LBussy
Well-Known Member
That makes sense but here's where I'm either confused or did not state myself correctly:
I thought EO contribution was generally less than 5%. I see more than one there:
- Parfum
- Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone
- Hexyl Cinnamal
- Limonene
- Linalool
- Hydroxycitronellal
If the total EO/FO contribution is 5%, then that means 0.83% of each of those assuming equal parts, and that would also mean that the Lanolin, following those, would also be at that level or lower. Less than 1% in any case and that doesn't seem like enough to make a difference.
I say "seem like" because I am new at all this, I just know I put 5% in my soaps.
- Parfum - Fragrance oil
- Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone masking agent
- Hexyl Cinnamal Often used as a masking agent this is a part of Chamomile and is used in perfuming. It is a known allergen.
- Limonene - Again part of an essential oil, citrus, which is obtained from oranges. It is done through centrifuge or steam distillation rather than the normal method of expressed from the peels.
- Linalool - A terpene alcohol that is found in a lot of different plants/essential oils.
- Hydroxycitronellal - This is a fragrance compound that can be used up to 5% according to IFRA.
wetshavingproducts
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A few brands use lanolin, but it's not a main ingredient in any shaving soap. It's there as a conditioner. Like shea butter.
wetshavingproducts
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I don't consider detergent to be soap.
But, that's not what I meant. I meant that the beard doesn't influence the lather. AFAIK and have heard.
But, I don't know everything.
Agreed and that is what I use it for in mine...
