Shaving soap with NAOH and KOH?

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If the two pot method is primarly to get the CO as the SF, do the following -

Work out your recipe with the full amounts of fats other than the CO. Count only enough CO to give you between a 0-1% SF, depending on your measure for how spot on it can be. Cook this up, so it is finished cooking and all lye has been saponified. THEN add the left over CO.

If we leave the potential for cation transfer which is still up in the air aside for now, this will give you a CO superfat in just one pot with a lot less faffing about. Two pot cooking for superfat alone is really not required at all.

 

[LBussy]

I suspect Lee's reasoning is something like "we know that potassium salts are more water soluble than sodium salts, so shave soap should only be made from potassium hydroxide." Not saying that's what he really thinks but the reasoning is sound.

Close, I just wonder if we can assume that is true (more soluble) and if that seems to be a desirable trait, why would anyone use NaOH except to make a harder soap? I'm hearing that's the only reason so that does answer my question.

The main purpose of the 2-pot method is to ensure CO is the SF. I am confident that it works although I have no way to empirically determine this ... so if I make a test batch how would I test it to objectively quantify the difference?

I'm not sure this would be possible @ home. In a large batch of oils one might be able to do some SG or melting point tests, but we're talking about a very small percentage of a solution/emulsion and I'm gonna guess that it's likely not going to happen in the kitchen.

Let me ask though: Why? If you like the soap, why worry about which fat is there? If the answer is "because" I'm okay with that too ... I am in the same boat with wanting to know the science behind it.

 

[dosco]

Close, I just wonder if we can assume that is true (more soluble) and if that seems to be a desirable trait, why would anyone use NaOH except to make a harder soap? I'm hearing that's the only reason so that does answer my question.

As I mentioned I tried it, it worked well, and I can source it locally. For me this is a big help ... so (for me) using less KOH is not based on any scientific reason.

Let me ask though: Why? If you like the soap, why worry about which fat is there? If the answer is "because" I'm okay with that too ... I am in the same boat with wanting to know the science behind it.

lol, when you boil it all down the reason is "because."

Because some of the folks on SMF were horrified of the thought of tallow SF. ('it's comedogenic') I personally had no ill effects, nor do I care, but why start making soaps with possibly objectionable features?

Because my wife and sister-in-law are convinced that CO is "good for the skin."

Because my SIL asked for some CO soap ... I told her single-oil CO soap is too cleansing and she would find it unpleasant. She tried some tallow based shave soap I sent her husband (made in such a way as to SF only with CO) and she quite liked it. So the facial soap I made for Xmas was made with the intent that the SF would be CO.

Because once I've established my mfg process it's easy to stick with.

Really a series of probably questionable excuses with no scientific basis.

 

[dosco]

If we leave the potential for cation transfer which is still up in the air aside for now, this will give you a CO superfat in just one pot with a lot less faffing about. Two pot cooking for superfat alone is really not required at all.

I thought the cation argument was with regards to potassium and sodium salts of fatty acids? Not SF.

Did I miss something again?

 

[LBussy]

It was inferred in the original articles that choosing one's SF was an exercise in futility. The references for that statement did not bear out that assertion. So while we have no actual tests, we have no reason to believe that the metals are running around all nimbly pimbly.

 

[dosco]

It was inferred in the original articles that choosing one's SF was an exercise in futility. The references for that statement did not bear out that assertion. So while we have no actual tests, we have no reason to believe that the metals are running around all nimbly pimbly.

Thanks. That's what I thought.

*whew*

Thought I was losing my mind for a minute. It's been a long week.

-Dave

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I thought the cation argument was with regards to potassium and sodium salts of fatty acids? Not SF.

Did I miss something again?

It all started with talk of specific superfatting and how it is only possible in hp and not in cp. Someone then raised the question about the salts altering overtime to include the superfat that we worked so hard to have.

As I said, I am not sold on it.

I also don't find the mix of KOH and NaOH to be objectionable in a soap so will make batches of that from time to time. When selling I'll see what the people want!

Regarding your processes, I am not going to be heart-broken if you don't change from the two-pot when it isn't needed. It's entirely up to you. But in the nature of a soaping forum I do have to point it out, not only for you but also for people reading who might then think that a two pot method is required for selectively superfatting when it really is not.

 

[kmarvel]

For what it's worth, I use 2 tsp. ppo of kaolin clay in mine.

I talked to my hubby this morning about all the things that have been discussed in this thread, and even though he always constantly raves about my shave soap (he's been shaving with it for about 5 years now), I asked him again if there was anything about it that he would change (based on the discussion in this thread), and he said 'no'. He loves how it gives him a very smooth gliding shave with absolutely no nicks or cuts, and he also loves how nice it makes his skin feel afterwards (no drying or tightness).

He also reports that my soap hasn't caused any dulling issues or breakage to his razor. He has never used a straight razor, but he uses either cartridge razors or his trusty DE razor given to him by my grandmother.

However.........in spite of his wonderfully glowing testimony, I told him that I shall be conducting a couple of experiments on my shave soap formula.....more for my sake than for his (at least for now, at any rate). I told him not to worry because I would not be changing anything in the formula except for the lye: i.e., instead of the 100% NaOH that I normally use in it, I shall try a combo of varying amounts of NaOH and KOH- just to see if it helps to improve the 'ease of lather' factor.

If I haven't said so before, I think it's wonderful that we have accumulated so many wet-shaving gents here on the forum. If it were not for you all (and DeeAnna and Lindy, too), and all the ensuing shaving discussions, it would never had occurred to me to use a mixture of lyes (instead of messing with my fatty acid profile) to improve the ever elusive 'ease of lather' factor in my formula. What a huge revelation that is to me! I send you all a big "Thank You!". :grin::clap:


IrishLass

Hi Irishlass,

Is there anyway you could share your shaving soap recipe? The one your hubby loves using one lye? Thank you.

 

[shunt2011]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34264

 

[IrishLass]

Hi Irishlass,

Is there anyway you could share your shaving soap recipe? The one your hubby loves using one lye? Thank you.

I am quite happy to share the bare bones of it, which I'm quite certain I've shared somewhere on the forum before:

60% high stearic fats (a combo of tallow and hard butters such as kokum butter and illipe butter)
20% castor oil
10% bubbly/cleansing oils
10% conditioning/liquid-at-room-temp oils
Superfat of 8%
NaOH (lye concentration of 30%)

Additions:

10% glycerin ppo
2 tsp kaolin clay ppo
2 tbsp. sugar ppo (which I add to all my formulas)
Coconut cream as part of my water amount (I use 4 tsp. coconut cream powder ppo mixed with some of my water)

For what it's worth, the total stearic/palmitic acid content of this soap is 35%, and it is able to be CP'd quite well if soaped at 120F.

The finished soap behaves very similar to the William's brand of shave pucks, which means there is a bit of a trial and error learning curve when it comes to finding the right amount of water and lathering technique to get the best shave out of it, but if you are patient enough to play with it and nail that down, you'll get a really great shave out of it without getting any nicks or cuts, and your face will be baby-butt smooth without experiencing any feeling of tightness or dryness to it (at least according to my hubby, and another experienced wet-shaving afficianado who was kind enough to test it out and provide honest/critical feedback.......and also my hand that felt the smoothness and suppleness of my hubby's face after he shaved with it).

HTH!
IrishLass