Shave Soap: Stearic vs. Palmitic

[Johnez]

Hey gang, I'm back with more shave soaps. The purpose of this thread is to compare a palmitic acid heavy shave soap to a stearic acid heavy shave soap. Glide, cushion, latherability, and stability are all going to be examined.

My hypothesis is that stearic may be superior in cushion and stability, while palmitic may be superior in latherability and possibly glide. These thoughts are based on off hand comments and one experiment conducted by @Shirley-D where stearic seemed more stable, at least temporarily. RO has conducted an experiment as well, however his SA derived from rapeseed oil may not have had as high amount of SA as thought (his own worry).

The main difficulty was sourcing a confirmed high SA fatty acid product. "Stearic Acid" is mostly a 50/50 mix of SA and PA, however there are industrial and food uses for high SA content fat- Hystrene 9718 and similar products with varying confirmed SA amounts between 70% to 92%. My source came from Fire In A Bottle and has 92% based on their source being Hystrene 9718.

Japan wax sourced from "From Nature With Love" (FNWL) has an impressive amount of palmitic acid (80%).

Both soaps are to be made using the modified hot process (heat oils, mix lye in, no additional heat).

 

[Johnez]

Palmitic soap notes:

A very very easy cook. I combined all oils, glycerine, and sodium citrate into the fats and nuked till melted in 20 second increments. I then mixed my lye into fats. Working with 100 grams of fats is difficult, measuring is the first issue, but completely mixing is the harder issue IMO. Miniature stick blender isn't simply a smaller version of what you all use, it's a wiggly disc at the end of a stick and no bell. Not super effective, does not incorporate or emulsify certain recipes well, however was necessary to get the fats and lye to "dance" a bit as the spatula was just pushing stuff around. I had a somewhat separated mixture that had solid bits and oil clearly visible, however a mixture none the less lol. Mini stick blender does not pull the mix together like the larger ones do and at this point I did end up having to finish with the spatula. It took about 10 minutes before the mixture eventually "broke" and started smoothing out, kept going till I got a consistency of a very nice thick pudding. Notice no soap on a stick lol. Japan wax isn't a huge bear to work with, it's nothing like stearic acid I'll tell ya that. I kinda wish I took a video to better show the process and what the mini stick blender does and doesn't do.

Anyway, here's what the first contender looks like:

Stearic Acid hopefully made tomorrow!

 

[Johnez]

Well I gone and did it:

This one was a bit more exciting, got my first volcano ever, thankfully I'm working with tiny amounts. Went through the "stages" of hot process right before my eyes, this result is within minutes of pouring in the lye. Soap remained workable however unfortunately I think my FO evaporated on contact since soaping so hot.

Stearic Acid is a very light and fluffy powder. Kind of interesting.

 

[Johnez]

Beside the main ingredient you'll notice a difference in glycerine. I've included only 5 grams for the palmitic soap, and 12.5 g for the stearic soap. The difference is due to the fact that stearic fatty acid does not have glycerine, the additional 7.45 grams I believe covers what the stearic may have had were it a standard fat (if my math is correct!)

Also, unfortunately it looks like I have a discrepancy in coconut and castor oil between recipes. I've visited both recipes so many times I may have forgotten to save a version. So annoyed. :-/ I may have to remake one of these, probably the palmitic since that one didn't volcano on me lol.

Recipes:

 

[Johnez]

Oof. Debating on whether I want to make 2 more batches opposite the batches I've made yesterday....or just make one more to have an even comparison. Four batches would be an interesting double experiment:

SA Batch 1
10% Coconut
10% Castor
60% Hystrene
20% Sunflower

SA Batch 2
15% Coconut
5% Castor
60% Hystrene 9718
20% Sunflower

PA Batch 1
10% Coconut
10% Castor
65% Japan Wax
15% Sunflower

PA Batch 2
15% Coconut
5% Castor
65% Japan Wax
15% Sunflower

 

[Johnez]

Shave report incoming, well start with pics:

Hystrene 9718 shave soap, a very decent soap.

Lather-thick and substantial. Takes a while to get up there with some careful water additions, develops a nice perfect sheen tho.

Shave performance-not especially slick, nor especially "amazing" feeling, however zero cons as well. Not irritating, not drying, no cuts. Whiskers removed with ease, without problems, and without any extra frills.

After the shave-a very "clean" feel. Does not leave anything behind. Not drying, no taut feeling. Not greasy, nor any difficulty removing residue.

If this Hystrene 9718 was easy and cheap to come by I'd further experiment or even try developing a "no frills" shave soap. It's expensive and hard to get for the result though. Soap is VERY hard in hand. If I ever get a recipe going that is too soft I might consider adding it in single digit percentage to harden a soft soap, however subbing in NaOH in place of some KOH might be able to accomplish same goal.

One question that I was able to answer-is it worth sourcing high stearic acid? Does it possess anything standard 50/50 stearic/palmitic does not? The answer is a shakey no to both questions. I've not exhausted all possibilities, however in making a standard shave soap, I've not found a standout reason to use high stearic over standard cosmetic grade SA. Thanks for reading all.

Palmitic Acid based soap report in the next 2 or 3 days!

 

[RødgrødMedFløde]

This is some awesome work! I'd really like to try out the micro batching, it's a great idea. I wonder about using a mixer with a single prong inserted? Maybe that wouldn't emulsify nearly as well?

Edit: I should mention, my primary soaping interest is shave soap.

 

[Johnez]

This is some awesome work! I'd really like to try out the micro batching, it's a great idea. I wonder about using a mixer with a single prong inserted? Maybe that wouldn't emulsify nearly as well?

Edit: I should mention, my primary soaping interest is shave soap.

Another shave soaper woohoo! Welcome aboard!

Thank you for the kind words. I can't take credit for the idea, but IMO microbatching shave soap is the way. Do you have an example of what you mean with the single prong? Personally I'm going to try using a stainless steel whisk.

 

[RødgrødMedFløde]

Another shave soaper woohoo! Welcome aboard!

Thank you for the kind words. I can't take credit for the idea, but IMO microbatching shave soap is the way. Do you have an example of what you mean with the single prong? Personally I'm going to try using a stainless steel whisk.

I'm excited to be here!

I was thinking one of these hand mixers with only one mixer piece inserted, just pop them out like you were going to clean them, and only put one back in:

I've definitely seen them at goodwill for $5

Quick question, how has upscaling gone?

 

[Johnez]

I'm excited to be here!

I was thinking one of these hand mixers with only one mixer piece inserted, just pop them out like you were going to clean them, and only put one back in:
View attachment 72563

I've definitely seen them at goodwill for $5

Quick question, how has upscaling gone?

Upscaling as in scaling up the recipes into larger batches? If so that's an excellent question. I've honestly not given that a shot yet as I've not created a recipe worth scaling up. I'm going the Benjamin Franklin route here and finding every combo *not* worth making LOL. I do have a tried and true recipe that I'm probably going to modify till perfect eventually.

 

[AliOop]

I was thinking one of these hand mixers with only one mixer piece inserted, just pop them out like you were going to clean them, and only put one back in:

The problem with those is that they create a ton of spatter - not a good thing with a caustic mixture. They also introduce a lot of air into the mixture.

If you don't mind the air bubbles but want to avoid the spatter, consider either one of these:


I have both, and find that the frother is more powerful than the mini-mixer. Either will get your micro-batches to trace; if using the mini-mixer, I use the stainless blade (not whisk) attachment for that. As long as you keep the business end submerged in your batter, the spatter is quite minimal. However, both get bogged down as the mixture thickens, at which point, a mini stainless hand-whisk works best for me.

 

[RødgrødMedFløde]

Upscaling as in scaling up the recipes into larger batches? If so that's an excellent question. I've honestly not given that a shot yet as I've not created a recipe worth scaling up. I'm going the Benjamin Franklin route here and finding every combo *not* worth making LOL. I do have a tried and true recipe that I'm probably going to modify till perfect eventually.

Fair enough! I'm thinking about doing slightly larger batches, maybe mini instead of micro lol! Something I could do in a mini crock And still be able to mix

 

[RødgrødMedFløde]

The problem with those is that they create a ton of spatter - not a good thing with a caustic mixture. They also introduce a lot of air into the mixture.

If you don't mind the air bubbles but want to avoid the spatter, consider either one of these:
View attachment 72571

I have both, and find that the frother is more powerful than the mini-mixer. Either will get your micro-batches to trace; if using the mini-mixer, I use the stainless blade (not whisk) attachment for that. As long as you keep the business end submerged in your batter, the spatter is quite minimal. However, both get bogged down as the mixture thickens, at which point, a mini stainless hand-whisk works best for me.

But, since they introduce extra bubbles, it's going to be different than the final product went upscaled right? I wonder if there is something...

 

[AliOop]

But, since they introduce extra bubbles, it's going to be different than the final product went upscaled right? I wonder if there is something...

If you find that "something," please post here on SMF, as that would be the Holy Grail of soapmaking, lol.

A true mini stickblender (as opposed to weak frothers or "mixers") is rarely available from anywhere, and is usually stupid expensive when one does find it. Holly's Soapmaking (formerly Kapia Mera, on YouTube) has a small corded one that is apparently no longer sold. We should all get a petition going with Brambleberry or one of the other soap suppliers to let them know we want this!

 

[johnnyusa]

If you find that "something," please post here on SMF, as that would be the Holy Grail of soapmaking, lol.

A true mini stickblender (as opposed to weak frothers or "mixers") is rarely available from anywhere, and is usually stupid expensive when one does find it. Holly's Soapmaking (formerly Kapia Mera, on YouTube) has a small corded one that is apparently no longer sold. We should all get a petition going with Brambleberry or one of the other soap suppliers to let them know we want this!

Webstraunt Store has a nice selection of mini stickblenders. I totally need one too.

 

[johnnyusa]

Shave soaper here. I just wanted to mention that I think a pre-shave lotion that is essentially a body butter recipe w a bar of soap to activate it into shaving cream works great for me. I have a badger brush and I made some dual lye shaving soap like I heard I needed, but eventually I just really like using shaving lotion. My recipe is here: best body butter I've made yet, w recipe

Also I think you would like this shaving board: Against The Grain - Wet Shaving Forum

 

[AliOop]

Webstraunt Store has a nice selection of mini stickblenders. I totally need one too.

I have never found any mini blenders on their site, only 7" shaft or longer, which is the size regularly available in big box stores and on Amazon. Would love a link if you have found something smaller than that. Thanks!

Edit: for instance, they call this one for $579 a "mini" stickblender. Well, it may be "mini" compared to the other commercial blenders, but it has the same 8" shaft as the non-commercial stickblenders that one can find for less than $50 on Amazon. Yes, the commercial one has a more powerful motor, but one doesn't need that for small-batch soapmaking.

 

[johnnyusa]

i just remembered seeing mini stick blenders when I bought my massive Kitchen Aid commercial-grade immersion blender.
I almost messed up a batch of pt ls over the weekend bc the pt solidified by the time I added lye solution to big pot so I had to turn heat on high to melt tar in emergency situation. Without that 1 hp commercial blender I would've likely failed using my medium 1000 hp All Clad, which I like except the head can't be removed for cleaning anymore.
You're right in that a 7' mini blender is all I could find, but it's 'only' $340
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/robot-coupe-mmp160vv-7-mini-immersion-blender/649MMP160VV.htmlSo a Zulay milk frother w upgraded titanium engine might be a better way to go there? I'm currently using my very smallest stickblender I bought when I first started the hobby fifteen years ago- a Cuisinart from Brambleberry, whom I recently noticed now sells their own branded stickblenders that don't say Cusinart on 'em anymore.

---- mixing potash into glycerin is the most dangerous thing I do, partly bc I just don't have a good pot to mix enough enough solution to make more than 145 oz oils w/o the lye solution coming dangerously close to splashing over the top of my pot. Based on advice I received in this forum, I changed the pots I was using to do this from a large stock pot that I had to tip to get head of blender into lye solution, to a smaller reg pot that I don't have to tip anymore, but it's kinda small.
It's so, so important to have the properly-sized pots for mixing lye solution.
It's the suction of the high-power blenders that seems really dangerous to me, bc to get that good vortex I need the blender head about 1/2' off the bottom of pot. Problem is the blender pulls down at high speed when blending hard, so I have to pull it up just a little against the suction by bracing the blender against my body, rather than the pot, for fear of pressure on one side of the pot causing it to tip over and splash lye solution all over me. You know what I'm talking about, right? Some kind of clamp or vice grips to keep pot from tipping over while I lean on one side of pot doing precision work w/ stickblender would be nice.
Btw thanks for telling me about eocalc.com, Ali.
I couldn't've made that mouthwash w/o having known about that site.
You're a godsend.

 

[AliOop]

So a Zulay milk frother w upgraded titanium engine might be a better way to go there?

YAAAASSS, now you are talking! Where can I order one?

I avoid the KOH + glycerin issues by first mixing my KOH in an equal amount of water. Then I still use glycerin for the remainder of my liquid, but I blend that into my oils before adding the lye solution. Prevents all the crazy heating issues and potential toxic fumes from heating the glycerin with the KOH.

 

[johnnyusa]

YAAAASSS, now you are talking! Where can I order one?

You're asking me? You're the one who posted it above. Amazon, of course.
Great idea. Mixing the potash into solution requires such little power and great dexterity that even a good milk frother could prob do it. I wonder how big of a batch it could handle tho.

YAAAASSS, now you are talking! Where can I order one?

I mix my KOH in an equal amount of water. Then I still use glycerin for the remainder of my liquid, but I blend that into my oils before adding the lye solution.

I like room temp glycerin method. 100% room temp glycerin, pour in the lye, turn stove up to high and blend like your life depends on it. That's an extremely interesting idea tho. I might be a little uncomfortable mixing undissolved lye into oils hoping they hook up properly w the glycerine. That really works huh? Brilliant.