Shampoo bars

[Meena]

In 2013, a member @judymoody (appears not to be here any longer) wrote:

"The high pH of CP soap will tend to roughen the hair cuticle unless you follow with something acidic."

Unfortunately, my Scientific Soapmaking book hasn't arrived yet, so can someone please tell me if this would also be true for HP hair soap? If CP is more alkaline than HP, why is that so?

Also, does the pH of CP shampoo soap remain in a high alkaline state after cure?

TIA!

Here's Judy's post:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/page-12#post-329673

 

[cmzaha]

Ph of lye soap whether cp or hp is simply to high for hair. It lifts the cuticle of the hair shaft which is why it feels rough. Following with vinegar will help lay the cuticle back down but it is still not good to use soap.

Hair ph is an average of 4.5 -5.5, so what do you think a high ph does? This is how perms and colors work. They open the hair cuticle to let in the chemicals. Just remember once hair is damaged the only fix is cutting it. Conditioners may make the hair feel smoother, but it does not fix damaged hair.

Shampoo are synthetics and soap is soap

 

[Chris_S]

Ph of lye soap whether cp or hp is simply to high for hair. It lifts the cuticle of the hair shaft which is why it feels rough. Following with vinegar will help lay the cuticle back down but it is still not good to use soap.

Hair ph is an average of 4.5 -5.5, so what do you think a high ph does? This is how perms and colors work. They open the hair cuticle to let in the chemicals. Just remember once hair is damaged the only fix is cutting it. Conditioners may make the hair feel smoother, but it does not fix damaged hair.

Shampoo are synthetics and soap is soap

Iv read things saying that it depends on hair type as to how well it works using a shampoo bar is this not the case? Iv been using a m+p shampoo base with what feels like equal sucess to synthetic shampoo am i missing something? I never usually used conditioner before so never done the acv rinse. I made a shampoo bar the other week and if that doesnt suit me ill just use it as a shower soap its got a high % of castor so should lather well Im aware that this is said to cause a sticky bar ect but thats part the reason i tried this recipe because i wanted to see how it worked within this recipe i just love the experimenting side

 

[gloopygloop]

cmzaha has told it perfectly, alkaline soap and hair just don't work together, soap will damage hair almost right away and probably worse on the long term. It does not matter what oils it is made of, yes it will lather like no tomorrow and will clean your hair and scalp but at the cost of damaging your hair. I have read so many times over the years that " your hair has to get used to soap first and then it starts to feel nice" well NOT TRUE. In the old days people did use soap before there were surfactant shampoo's but they didn't wash their hair very often which would I guess have saved it a bit. Short mens hair well you could get away with it maybe but it will leave a dull film unless acid rinsed to close the cuticle. As far as M& P is concerned I dont know much about it as I have never used it but many are in fact a mix of surfactant I think, so if that is the case then it would be like a shampoo bar but as I said I dont know about M&P.

 

[shunt2011]

I can speak for myself and several others here who have tried it and it was a total disaster. Doesn't matter if CP or HP the PH is too high. I have thick somewhat curly hair. It was to my shoulders, had to cut it off just short of a pixie. You an surely try it but be prepared as it may not work.

 

[Meena]

I can speak for myself and several others here who have tried it and it was a total disaster. Doesn't matter if CP or HP the PH is too high. I have thick somewhat curly hair. It was to my shoulders, had to cut it off just short of a pixie. You an surely try it but be prepared as it may not work.

Thanks . Sounds like I haven't gotten to the part of the thread where everyone stopped raving about how fabulous these bars were.
I certainly don't want to damage my hair.

 

[shunt2011]

@Meena Also, if you color your hair it will make the color fade very quickly. However, the recipe in the file make a great gentle face/body soap.

 

[topred]

Thanks . Sounds like I haven't gotten to the part of the thread where everyone stopped raving about how fabulous these bars were.
I certainly don't want to damage my hair.

I make a shampoo bar using surfactants and if necessary, adjust the pH. Surfactants, correctly chosen, are great for your hair. Soap, CP or HP, is not. And you can add so many lovely conditioning agents to a shampoo bar! The only limit is your imagination and your wallet!

 

[gloopygloop]

I liked the idea of shampoo bars made with surfactants until I read that a liquid shampoo is surfactants diluted with water, as we know usually more than 50% but the bars are mostly concentrated surfactant held together sometimes by melting and or a glue such as glycerine which I understand such bars to be? The person making and using the said bars were not at all in love with them as they were too cleansing, stripping and harsh. It put me off going any further on that front as it did make sense to me, I am happy with liquid which I make and refill bottle, hate the thought of all those supermarket bottles being dumped after use though! But very many people adore them so there must be something good in there.

 

[Dawni]

I've also toyed with the idea of making soap shampoo bars coz I have all these awesome herbs for it (neem, amla, shikakai, henna, etc.), and Ive tried them and seem to have worked for me but I guess I didn't use them long enough plus I don't shampoo often to notice any bad effects.

My scalp was better then than my hair, and now I'm using a syndet shampoo bar that I bought and my scalp likes it less but my hair is great. Need to find a middle ground so I'm looking into making syndets as well but the cost of additional ingredients is holding me back.

If you wanna try those @Meena there's a handful of threads with recipes and feedback on this forum too

 

[Meena]

I've also toyed with the idea of making soap shampoo bars coz I have all these awesome herbs for it (neem, amla, shikakai, henna, etc.),
If you wanna try those @Meena there's a handful of threads with recipes and feedback on this forum too

Thanks Dawni! I've been reading a huge thread here, still have 25 pages to go. I have those herbs too, and recently almost ordered honeyquat. Glad now that i didn't. Those herbs can be used as mud packs , which i very occasionally do, due to time usually.

 

[cmzaha]

I liked the idea of shampoo bars made with surfactants until I read that a liquid shampoo is surfactants diluted with water, as we know usually more than 50% but the bars are mostly concentrated surfactant held together sometimes by melting and or a glue such as glycerine which I understand such bars to be? The person making and using the said bars were not at all in love with them as they were too cleansing, stripping and harsh. It put me off going any further on that front as it did make sense to me, I am happy with liquid which I make and refill bottle, hate the thought of all those supermarket bottles being dumped after use though! But very many people adore them so there must be something good in there.

Not sure what type of LS you are referring to, if it is handmade LS it is lye soap with an alkaline ph. The feel of surfactant based shampoo can be controlled by the type of surfactant used.

If hair is cut regularly and keep it short you will probably be fine. Think about what happened to Chaz and his lawsuit in which he paid out a lot of money and pulled his Liquid Soap (shampoo). This was done before any proof was submitted of it being harmful or safe. He then changed his product line to a cleansing conditioner. When I first saw his line of LS for hair I told my husband there was going to be problems, and shame on him since he should have know better, and yes there was. I was still making LS (not for hair), at the time and looked up his products. They were lye based LS sold as conditioning shampoo.

The biggest problem with making solid shampoo bars is the cost. The ingredients are not cheap, but I love my shampoo bars as does my scalp and hair. I say my scalp likes them, but sometimes my eczema just will not cooperate no matter what I use. My scalp likes salt bars but of course my hair hates them, so I only use salt bars on my scalp when it decides to break out, so fortunately I am not using them enough to damage my hair.

Shunt is very correct in her post #7 that soap will fade color. When you use soap and open the cuticle you are now washing away the color that is deposited under the cuticle.

In the end everyone has to make up their own mind, but I would simply not sell soap as shampoo.

 

[gloopygloop]

I didn't mean LS at all just liquid / cream surfactant in reply to topred, meaning the dilution of the surfactant down to 50% or more with water and other goodies. It was because was because of the person ( not on this forum) who'd tried their own surfactant shampoo bar and was disappointed. This sort of made sense to me as regular shampoo or my own made with lovely mild surfactants seem to clean just fine and no striping, I could see the logistic that a solid version is pretty much concentrated surfactants albeit maybe lovely and mild. For many this will work well and perhaps for those with very greasy hair and those who do not unlike myself shampoo everyday.
Think it is totally personal except Potassium LS which we all agree is not for hair !

 

[Obsidian]

I've use syndet shampoo bars and like them very much. Yes they are concentrated but the cleansers are diluted on your head with water.

Some are harsher than others. Takes lushs for example, they are pure SLS and can be harsher. The bars I use are mild, hair and scalp like them.

As far as lye shampoo goes, add me to the list of ruined hair. It took two years for the damage to build up but when it did, I had to buzz my head. It was that bad.

 

[DeeAnna]

Talking only about synthetic detergents here, not soap --

It's important to know how to formulate any syndet shampoo properly, whether liquid or solid. Otherwise it's very easy to end up with shampoo that's harsh and drying. If you've ever used a liquid shampoo that's all or mostly SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), you'll know what I mean.

Because the total % of detergent is so high in a solid shampoo, it's especially important to use a blend of two or more different types of surfactants to ensure mildness. That's why many recipes for shampoo bars use combinations of SLeS and/or SCI (solid surfactants) mixed with CAPB and/or C14-C16 and/or polysorbates (liquid surfactants) rather than just one or two surfactants. And many of the better shampoo bar recipes avoid SLS entirely, because it's a strong cleanser and can be harder to "tame" down. This blending of different products is essentially the same principle as blending various fats to formulate a soap that is a mild cleanser vs one that is harsh.

I have fine hair that's getting drier with age, so it's important to me to shampoo with a mild product that doesn't strip my hair or scalp. I make my own shampoo bar and get very good results, but it's a blend of mild surfactants. I'm sure I'd hate a shampoo bar that's mostly or all SLS.

Some shampoo bars and liquid shampoos have only one surfactant in them -- typically an inexpensive syndet such as SLS. If this type of product is a person's only experience with shampoo bars, it's no wonder they think shampoo bars are harsh. But it's unfair to judge ALL syndet shampoo bars by this one experience. It's like saying ALL lye-soap is bad after trying one badly formulated soap.

 

[gloopygloop]

Talking only about synthetic detergents here, not soap --

It's important to know how to formulate any syndet shampoo properly, whether liquid or solid. Otherwise it's very easy to end up with shampoo that's harsh and drying. If you've ever used a liquid shampoo that's all or mostly SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), you'll know what I mean.

Because the total % of detergent is so high in a solid shampoo, it's especially important to use a blend of two or more different types of surfactants to ensure mildness. That's why many recipes for shampoo bars use combinations of SLeS and/or SCI (solid surfactants) mixed with CAPB and/or C14-C16 and/or polysorbates (liquid surfactants) rather than just one or two surfactants. And many of the better shampoo bar recipes avoid SLS entirely, because it's a strong cleanser and can be harder to "tame" down. This blending of different products is essentially the same principle as blending various fats to formulate a soap that is a mild cleanser vs one that is harsh.

Some shampoo bars and liquid shampoos have only one surfactant in them -- typically an inexpensive syndet such as SLS. If this type of product is a person's only experience with shampoo bars, it's no wonder they think shampoo bars are harsh. But it's unfair to judge ALL syndet shampoo bars by this one experience. It's like saying ALL lye-soap is bad after trying one badly formulated soap.

Yes I think that sums it up perfectly. I personally totally understand the mixture of different surfactants in order to get a good combination of cleaning and condoning although there are those who argue that shampoo is for cleaning and condoner is for conditioning, perhaps they are right. I also discovered on my very long journey to find " The Shampoo" HA!!! that the amount of " Actives " added up among the mix is also crucial to how the shampoo behaves as in lathers, is gentle is conditioning and so on, its rather like working out allergens in Eos IMO. There has been a lot of trial and many, many errors over the years but then I like experimenting. Trying to get that Holy Grail of shampoo and yet to get it thick enough without gums settling out on the base is for another thread sometime.
I come from three generations of hair trade and I myself have been associated for more than 45 years, it doesn't make me any kind of expert but I have tried a few things on the way. I understand the difficulties and there are a few " shampoo laws" I totally get that a bar with a combined mix of wonderful surfactants could work well, the person who's blog I read my original comments had posted their recipe which seemed to be just fine! so who knows, its very personal and their probably is no Holy Grail, just the one you personally like.

 

[Meena]

As far as lye shampoo goes, add me to the list of ruined hair. It took two years for the damage to build up but when it did, I had to buzz my head. It was that bad.

Oh noooooo!! I'm so sorry you went through that! I'll have to finish reading that thread to see where it all started falling apart, and glean what can be learned from the remainder of the posts. In the meantime, shampoo bars have been crossed off my to-do list.

 

[gloopygloop]

I would like to hear a side by side comparison with surfactant shampoo bar and a nice liquid shampoo to see what if any difference is made. I happened to have a regular nice quality little hotel shampoo which I thought I would try this morning since all this talk of shampoo, its hole so I imagine not the most amazing but the make is upper middle so not dishwashing type stuff. I noted that to my surplice the lather was not so great and I would need to use far more than my own home made to achieve a similar lather. It was not creamy as my own which does contain a good dollop of SCI it sort of made my hair feel hard like cheap wholesale shampoos I have bought and used way back. But the end result to be hones not much difference, I still love my own make and doubt now that I will venture into making bars but I can see their appeal.

 

[Obsidian]

I use a ton of different commercial shampoos. Harsh cleansing ones for gunk build up, milder ones for not so dirty days and a sulfate free that has cones for when I need really gentle.

My syndet bar falls between the harshest one and the gentler one. It cleans well without stripping but its not harsh enough if my scalp is really, really oily.

I have a skin condition on my scalp that requires me to keep it really clean. The syndet does a fine job most days. If I need more, I just grab my suave clarifying shampoo.

I generally don't need a conditioner when using the syndet either unless my hair has been chemically damaged. If using commercial shampoos, I can only get away without conditioning when using the sulfate free.

 

[SoaperForLife]

If you want a clarifying syndet, Lush's Karma Komba would definitely work. I bought one to try and the ingredients are: Sodium Lauryl Sulfate Sodium Cocoamphoacetate Fragrance