Shampoo Bar - Thanks Lindy!!

[Alaska beauty]

Natural lecithin, vitamins and extra proteins from egg. The best shampoo I ever try- raw egg yolks themselves or with half teaspoon of baking soda and mustard powder .

 

[Lin]

DeeAnna, what are your thoughts on adding a small bit of citric acid plus the extra lye to convert it to sodium citrate when making regular soap bars to help with hard water?

 

[DeeAnna]

That's what I would do, Lin.

I was reading a Russian soaper's website last night and found the recommendation to add "...0.6 grams of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) [for every] 1 g of citric acid..." *

My math is giving me a different answer. The molecular weight of NaOH is 40 g/ mol. The MW for citric acid is 192 g/mol for anhydrous and 210 g/mol for monohydrate. I used the anhydrous MW, not that it makes a big difference in the answer.

The molar equivalent of 1 g of citric acid, based on these numbers, is approximately 0.2 g of NaOH --
1 g citric acid * (1 mole/192 g citric acid) * (40 g NaOH/1 mole) = 40/192 = 0.21 g NaOH

Not sure if I'm missing something in my understanding of this issue. If others can clarify why 0.6 g is the correct number, kindly set me straight. The author of the 0.6 g NaOH / 1 g citric acid didn't show her math, so I can't verify for myself. It would make me feel better to know I'm using accurate information.

* Source: http://translate.googleusercontent....k.html&usg=ALkJrhhcWFBmBE0vaoLq6OiXQ6Ul5ozfSg

PS "perezhira" in this article = superfat

 

[roseb]

I love reading your posts DeeAnna...even if I don't understand half if it. I want to be you when I grow up!

 

[DeeAnna]

<chuckle!> Thanks, Rose! I'm tickled you think that about me, but I'm often just as confused and unsure and just plain wrong as any other soaper. But I do get along with math pretty good! :crazy:

 

[lreynolds]

Eggs and Fig

Two questions for all you seasoned soapers out there!
1. At what point can you add egg, or is it just the egg yoke, to CP soap? Seems like the lye would cook it? :?:
2. I have used WEN shampoo, and I hear that the fig is better for curly hair. How could you incorporate fig into Genny's original recipe?:wtf:

 

[DeeAnna]

To be clear, I've personally never added egg to soap, but I looked into it awhile back. Here's what I've gleaned from several older posts on SMF, etc. about adding egg. Take this info with a grain of salt -- the stuff about benefits are just folks' opinions, not absolute truth.

Benefits of adding egg to soap:
...The difference in the soap is truly amazing - the lather is rich and deep as well as hugely conditioning. Good for shampoo bars. The lecithin adds shine to hair.

An egg yolk weighs about 50 g total with 3.6 g carbohydrates, 26.5 g fat, and 15.9 g protein. 10% (5 g) is fatty acids and 9% (4.5 g) is lecithin. Fatty acid blend is roughly similar to rice bran oil. Here is the fat analysis:

Unsaturated fatty acids:
Oleic acid, 47%
Linoleic acid, 16%
Palmitoleic acid, 5%
Linolenic acid, 2%

Saturated fatty acids:
Palmitic acid, 23%
Stearic acid, 4%
Myristic acid, 1%

General method of use:
Remove the chalazae before using any form of egg in soap.

Egg yolk only: ...Use one yolk PPO. You also need to temper the egg yolk. Beat the yolk first, then add warm oils (90-100 deg F), and beat. Add the egg-oil mixture to the rest of your oils without your lye and blend it really, really well. Add your lye and soap as usual.

Whole egg: ...I used whole eggs. I removed all of the ropey white stuff (chalazae) that I could. I used the stick blender to beat the whole eggs, added some warm oil to the eggs, beat that mixture and added it to the rest of the oils, beat that together with the stick blender then added the lye and blended to thin trace.

Egg white only: ...if you whip the egg whites you can add that to your lye water and then beat it again. I use my SB to do the whipping of the egg whites and again in the lye water.

Removing the chalazae and yolk membrane: ...I put one of my egg yolks in a fine wire-mesh strainer. I broke it and had to push it around with my finger to get the thick yolk to leak through the wire. When it was all through, even though the yolk was clean from that slimy white thing (you know what I'm talking about!) [chalazae] there was [also] a yolk membrane left behind in the strainer. This method may save egg-yolk soaps from getting those funky clumps in it.

...make sure to remove the thin membrane that surrounds the yolk first. You don't want to add the membrane to the soap or it will add white lumps or curdles. What I did when I made mine is this: after I first separated the yolk completely intact from the white, I poked a small hole in the thin, transparent membrane that surrounds the yolk and holds it together. I then let the yolk run freely out of the hole into a cup and threw the membrane away.

Results:
...Ummm, well, you know when you overcook a hardboiled egg and it gets the green sulfur rim around the yolk? That's the color the gelled soap reminds me of. Turned this weird sort of olive green tint.... Smelled terrible until this morning. Smells like the EOs now. At any rate, no problems at all with the egg yolks; tempered and added to oils. ... The odd green color I mentioned previously disappeared completely and it's now the lovely yellow again. Smells great, lather is amazing.
...The scent will settle out. I find it smells awful for about a week and settles down.
...I neglected to remove the chalazae, so there are little white specks in the soap that I could feel on my skin. I'll just pretend they're for exfoliation!

Ingredient listing:
...Lotioncrafters lists dry egg as Ovum. They list regular egg as egg. If you include a blurb on the label about added protein and lecithin of egg, then it might look great to the consumer even if you don't make any claims about the benefits of egg.

Sources:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/printthread.php?t=18164
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32119
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=6299

 

[seven]

i have an egg powder... hmmm, this might be fun. not a fan of handling raw egg

 

[Tienne]

That's what I would do, Lin.

I was reading a Russian soaper's website last night and found the recommendation to add "...0.6 grams of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) [for every] 1 g of citric acid..." *

My math is giving me a different answer. The molecular weight of NaOH is 40 g/ mol. The MW for citric acid is 192 g/mol for anhydrous and 210 g/mol for monohydrate. I used the anhydrous MW, not that it makes a big difference in the answer.

The molar equivalent of 1 g of citric acid, based on these numbers, is approximately 0.2 g of NaOH --
1 g citric acid * (1 mole/192 g citric acid) * (40 g NaOH/1 mole) = 40/192 = 0.21 g NaOH

Not sure if I'm missing something in my understanding of this issue. If others can clarify why 0.6 g is the correct number, kindly set me straight. The author of the 0.6 g NaOH / 1 g citric acid didn't show her math, so I can't verify for myself. It would make me feel better to know I'm using accurate information.

* Source: http://translate.googleusercontent....k.html&usg=ALkJrhhcWFBmBE0vaoLq6OiXQ6Ul5ozfSg

PS "perezhira" in this article = superfat

The chemical formula for citric acid is C6H8O7 and for sodium citrate it's C6H5Na3O7, so don't you need 3 mol NaOH to make 1 mol sodium citrate, hence the 0.6g ? (= 3 x 0.2)

 

[FlybyStardancer]

That's right, Tienne. Three molecules of sodium per molecule of citric acid. And one of the sites I read stated that the 1:.6 ratio is an average between the two forms of citric acid.

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks, Tienne. Yes, you would be right -- it would be a 3:1 molar ratio of sodium to citric acid and 0.6 g NaOH / 1 g citric acid, if trisodium citrate is the primary species created. There's mono- and di-sodium citrate forms as well. ?

 

[Tienne]

There are a heck of a lot of sodium ions floating around in the mix. If there's a mix of mono-, di- and trisodium citrate in the citrate mix, then when it's added to the proto-soap, booming with Na+, then perhaps the equation is pushed towards favouring the trisodium version?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...perhaps the equation is pushed towards favouring the trisodium version?..."

Yes, I agree with your thoughts, Tienne. So the "learned consensus" is trisodium citrate and a 3:1 molar ratio of NaOH to citric acid.

1 g citric acid * 3 mole/1 mole * (1 mole/192 g citric acid) * (40 g NaOH/1 mole) = 40*3/192 = 0.625 g NaOH (to be exact)

So for every 1 gram of citric acid added to the recipe, add 0.6 g of NaOH. This is in addition to the NaOH required to make the soap.

Example:
100 g NaOH are needed to make a particular soap recipe
15 g citric acid are to be added to the recipe as well

How much extra NaOH is required to react with the citric acid to make sodium citrate?
15 g citric * (0.6 g NaOH/1 gram citric) = 15 * 0.6 = 9 g NaOH to react with the citric

What then is the total NaOH needed for the recipe?
Total NaOH = 100 g for the soap + 9 g for the citric = 100 + 9 = 109 g

 

[lreynolds]

<chuckle!> Thanks, Rose! I'm tickled you think that about me, but I'm often just as confused and unsure and just plain wrong as any other soaper. But I do get along with math pretty good! :crazy:

To be clear, I've personally never added egg to soap, but I looked into it awhile back. Here's what I've gleaned from several older posts on SMF, etc. about adding egg. Take this info with a grain of salt -- the stuff about benefits are just folks' opinions, not absolute truth.

Benefits of adding egg to soap:
...The difference in the soap is truly amazing - the lather is rich and deep as well as hugely conditioning. Good for shampoo bars. The lecithin adds shine to hair.

An egg yolk weighs about 50 g total with 3.6 g carbohydrates, 26.5 g fat, and 15.9 g protein. 10% (5 g) is fatty acids and 9% (4.5 g) is lecithin. Fatty acid
blend is roughly similar to rice bran oil. Here is the fat analysis:

Unsaturated fatty acids:
Oleic acid, 47%
Linoleic acid, 16%
Palmitoleic acid, 5%
Linolenic acid, 2%


Saturated fatty acids:
Palmitic acid, 23%
Stearic acid, 4%
Myristic acid, 1%

General method of use:
Remove the chalazae before using any form of egg in soap.


Egg yolk only: ...Use one yolk PPO. You also need to temper the egg yolk. Beat the yolk first, then add warm oils (90-100 deg F), and beat. Add the egg-oil mixture to the rest of your oils without your lye and blend it really, really well. Add your lye and soap as usual.

Whole egg: ...I used whole eggs. I removed all of the ropey white stuff
(chalazae) that I could. I used the stick blender to beat the whole eggs, added some warm oil to the eggs, beat that mixture and added it to the rest of the oils, beat that together with the stick blender then added the lye and blended to thin trace.

Egg white only: ...if you whip the egg whites you can add that to your lye water and then beat it again. I use my SB to do the whipping of the egg whites and again in the lye water.


Removing the chalazae and yolk membrane: ...I put one of my egg yolks in a fine wire-mesh strainer. I broke it and had to push it around with my finger to get the thick yolk to leak through the wire. When it was all through, even though the yolk was clean from that slimy white thing (you know what I'm talking about!) [chalazae] there was [also] a yolk membrane left behind in the strainer. This method may save egg-yolk soaps from getting those funky clumps in it.

...make sure to remove the thin membrane that surrounds the yolk first. You don't want to add the membrane to the soap or it will add white lumps or curdles. What I did when I made mine is this: after I first separated the yolk completely intact from the white, I poked a small hole in the thin, transparent membrane that surrounds the yolk and holds it together. I then let the yolk run freely out of the hole into a cup and threw the membrane away.

Results:
...Ummm, well, you know when you overcook a hardboiled egg and it gets the green sulfur rim around the yolk? That's the color the gelled soap reminds me of. Turned this weird sort of olive green tint.... Smelled terrible until this morning. Smells like the EOs now. At any rate, no problems at all with the egg yolks; tempered and added to oils. ... The odd green color I mentioned previously disappeared completely and it's now the lovely yellow again. Smells great, lather is amazing.
...The scent will settle out. I find it smells awful for about a week and settles down.
...I neglected to remove the chalazae, so there are little white specks in the soap that I could feel on my skin. I'll just pretend they're for exfoliation!

Ingredient listing:
...Lotioncrafters lists dry egg as Ovum. They list regular egg as egg. If you include a blurb on the label about added protein and lecithin of egg, then it might look great to the consumer even if you don't make any claims about the benefits of egg.

Sources:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/printthread.php?t=18164
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32119
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=6299

Great info!!! Thank you!!!

 

[Tienne]

Two questions for all you seasoned soapers out there!
1. At what point can you add egg, or is it just the egg yoke, to CP soap? Seems like the lye would cook it? :?:
2. I have used WEN shampoo, and I hear that the fig is better for curly hair. How could you incorporate fig into Genny's original recipe?:wtf:

I've added egg yolk to soap. I strain the yolk into a small oiled bowl through a small sieve to keep the membrane back and then I just add it to the oils as is and SB it well and then just proceed as usual, adding rhe lye water and so on. I haven't experienced any bad smell to the soap or any off-green discolouration, but it does colour the soap to a more opaque light mustardy yellow colour than otherwise and the lather is thick and dense.

I've also tried rebatching an egg soap and that went surprisingly well, too! I wondered if the soap would end up grainy (as in scrambled egg soap), but nope! The soap is smooth and the lather is still thick and dense. I would say the rebatched soap has a little more of a slick feeling to it, like a Castile, but not in the slimy way, but in that slick, slippery sort of way, if you know what I mean. It feels nice!

Edit: The CP egg soap was soaped at room temp.

 

[Lin]

I have 5g citric acid with 3 grams lye to balance ppo down in my soap notes, I believe that was from flyby. I know thats who I first saw discussing citric acid with the lye to balance used as a chelating agent and started looking into it. We have hard water where I'm at now, and most likely when I move (gotta move by June at the latest) I'm going to have hard water. Someday I'd like to buy a water softener since I have so many issues with hard water on my skin.

 

[grayceworks]

I think I am allergic to something in Dr. Bronner's. Every time I have tried to use it I start breaking out.

Dr Bronners is NOT Castile. It is misleadingly labelled. If you read the ingredients, it is primarily coconut oil, which some people are sensitive to.

By contrast, Castile is pure olive oil, and is considered good for people with sensitivities usually.

 

[QueenBeeSoap]

With curls, what type of clay do you recommend?

I used bentonite clay in mine, which someone else suggested would help with curls earlier in this thread.

I've just tried my shampoo soap on my very long curly hair after a 6+ week cure. I was impressed with the rich, creamy lather (I currently use a "low-poo" shampoo, so I'm not used to a ton of lather while washing my hair). It left my hair unpleasantly squeaky clean and sticky while rinsing, and straw-like as soon as it dried, though. My husband tried it on his short hair and had the same experience, except he also felt it left his hair a bit greasy. I'll have to give it another chance after a longer cure time or with a vinegar rinse, or decide if it's worth sticking with it to see if my hair will adjust.

I love this recipe for a facial soap, though, so it definitely won't go to waste! The creamy lather is perfect, and it leaves my skin feeling soft and moisturized.

 

[lreynolds]

Dr Bronners is NOT Castile. It is misleadingly labelled. If you read the ingredients, it is primarily coconut oil, which some people are sensitive to.

By contrast, Castile is pure olive oil, and is considered good for people with sensitivities usually.

I rub coconut oil all over me, often, with no problems. Strange!

 

[grayceworks]

I rub coconut oil all over me, often, with no problems. Strange!

The difference is that coconut oil soap can be very harsh, as it's good at stripping the oils from your skin. Which makes your skin produce too much oil trying to replace it. Which can cause breakouts.