Shampoo Bar - Thanks Lindy!!

[squyars]

I assumed you were referring to the bar, and that you had been using it on your hair.

"They" stopped making it only in the sense that the brand was sold off. AFAIK the new owners are still making it. Were you using it on your hair, though?

When I use store bought bars, they leave my hair feeling like straw and it feels dirty. I don't use them for my hair anymore, but the store bought liquid shampoo, although they make my hair feel clean and silky, irritate the eczema on the rest of my body. Besides that,I have such oily hair, that less than 24 hours, and I need to wash again because my hair gets so oily.

Really hoping a handmade shampoo (either bar or liquid) will help with my skin, and oily scalp. When I start using it,I will update.

Williamsburg, VA

You will notice a HUGE difference with handmade soap. First, Dove and Ivory aren't soaps. They are detergent! Google the ingredients. You'd be shocked. I did a blog post on this very topic.

My daughter has SEVERE eczema. And switching to handmade soap has cured it. Among many other things for the different members of our family. We will never again use store bought 'soap'. If you haven't made it yet, or are waiting for it to cure, I would suggest purchasing some from other soap makers while you wait. Even though I make my own soap, I still like buying from other soapers.

Still trying to figure out the difference between soap and detergent, but I know something isn't right in one or more of those chemicals. My hands are particularly bad off, they are itchy and painfully cracked. I really feel the worst offenders are the soaps, washes and shampoos, as well as the dish detergent.

Can't wait to try REAL soap. I am truly thankful that one of our other members are sending me some of her soaps in exchange for mine, while I'm waiting for mine to cure. I will keep you all posted. I took a really grainy picture of my thumb (phone cameras don't take good close-up' s). You might be able to see the dry, cracked areas.

Williamsburg, VA

 

[Robert]

You will notice a HUGE difference with handmade soap. First, Dove and Ivory aren't soaps. They are detergent! Google the ingredients.

Ivory (solid) is soap. But they are both detergents.

"Soap" and "detergent" don't cover the same ground in classification. "Soap" refers to the composition of the product. "Detergent" refers to its purpose or action. A detergent (noun) is something used for cleaning; "detergent" as an adjective just means "cleaning" or "having the ability to clean".

There are soaps that are not detergents. These are the soaps of various metals that are used as lubricants, anticaking agents, and various toiletry ingredients functioning other than as a cleaner.

When I use store bought bars, they leave my hair feeling like straw and it feels dirty. I don't use them for my hair anymore, but the store bought liquid shampoo, although they make my hair feel clean and silky, irritate the eczema on the rest of my body.

Is there some way you could wash your hair that it won't run over the rest of you?

Besides that,I have such oily hair, that less than 24 hours, and I need to wash again because my hair gets so oily.

Really hoping a handmade shampoo (either bar or liquid) will help with my skin, and oily scalp. When I start using it,I will update.

Have you used kettle process soap on your hair at any time?

To review, you're waiting for a batch to cure. I don't know whether it's your 1st batch or you've made some before. We're trying to figure out how you can get to what you want for your hair (leaving the skin problem for another thread) in the shortest time.

 

[squyars]

Thanks Robert! Obsidian is graciously sending me one of her shampoo bars AND a tar bar for my skin. Can't wait to try them out. I will let everyone know how they work for me, and post pics of my skin if it clears up.

I only made my first batch of soap (ever) last week, so I'll be waiting three more weeks for it to cure.

 

[Hazel]

You will notice a HUGE difference with handmade soap. First, Dove and Ivory aren't soaps. They are detergent! Google the ingredients. You'd be shocked. I did a blog post on this very topic.

I saw Robert's post so I don't have post my usual blah blah yadda yadda message. If people are interested, they can search my posts for my comments.

Dove is a syndet but syndets can be more gentle than handmade soap. I have a BIL with severe psoriasis and Ivory is the only soap he can use. I say soap because Ivory isn't a syndet and I don't think its ingredients are terrible. As far as I know, the ingredients are still mainly tallow and coconut/palm kernel with some salt, silica and magnesium sulfate. BTW, both silica and magnesium sulfate are minerals which are good for our bodies. Silica is actually the most abundant mineral in our bodies. I'm a huge fan of magnesium sulfate and I use a lot of Epsom salts. I don't understand why people get so upset about Ivory soap. The only think I think is nasty about it is the fragrance but this is just my opinion. Some people love the scent. So, please let's not be bigots and make negative comments about syndets and commercial soaps since there are actually people whose skin are irritated by handmade soap. Different strokes for different folks. I prefer my soap because I use less moisturizer than if I use store bought soap and I can choose my own scents. But I also don't have any problem with the idea of using store bought soap if I had to since there are some I like.

 

[stargazer44]

Since my husband is a chemist, we can agree to disagree. I am horribly allergic to Ivory, so don't use it. If I was allergic to handmade soap, I wouldn't use it. Most commercial bars don't claim to be soap because they are not. Dove contains an ingredient which contains formaldehyde. Something I choose not to use. Handmade soap - for my family - is all we use. If someone choses to use something else and it works, great!

I was trying to be helpful - didn't realize it would upset people. Frankly I don't appreciate being called a bigot. I am rather offended and insulted. I will unfollow this post now. A lot was read into a simple post that was trying to help someone who was having trouble with commercial soap. :-x

 

[MOGal70]

I don't understand why people get so upset about Ivory soap. The only think I think is nasty about it is the fragrance but this is just my opinion.

Hazel, I totaly agree with you! As a child my mother bought Ivory dishwashing liquid, she never required me to do the dishes, but I would tell her if she would buy another brand I would do them. I hate the smell of Ivory!

 

[squyars]

I guess I will see what happens when I start using homemade soap. Not trying to badmouth commercial brand soaps, but I believe it's the detergents that I am allergic to. Ever since the 90's, even Ivory started including detergent to help decrease soapscum build-up. I was able to stay with Dove Sensitive for a while, but even that stopped working.

Thank you for everyone's assistance. Really can't wait to give my first shampoo bar a try.

 

[Hazel]

Since my husband is a chemist, we can agree to disagree. I am horribly allergic to Ivory, so don't use it. If I was allergic to handmade soap, I wouldn't use it. Most commercial bars don't claim to be soap because they are not. Dove contains an ingredient which contains formaldehyde. Something I choose not to use. Handmade soap - for my family - is all we use. If someone choses to use something else and it works, great!

I was trying to be helpful - didn't realize it would upset people. Frankly I don't appreciate being called a bigot. I am rather offended and insulted. I will unfollow this post now. A lot was read into a simple post that was trying to help someone who was having trouble with commercial soap. :-x

I apologize because I realize that came off more harsh than I intended and I'm sorry I offended you. I shouldn't have used the word. But I get really tired of reading comments about commercial soap and body products. If you had stated you were allergic, I wouldn't have posted what I did and would have empathized with you. I'm allergic to Zest soap. I don't know what it is but it makes me break out in hives. I looked at Dove's ingredients and I'm not seeing which ingredient you state has formaldehyde in it. But I'm not a chemist so I use sites like Swift's blog, chemistscorner and personalcaretruth for research plus an ingredients dictionary. I know they don't cover all ingredients.

You're right to call me out on this and I shouldn't have expressed it the way I did. I should have expressed my opinion more tactfully. It's a huge issue and everyone has different experiences and reactions. Some people are irritated by synthetic cleansing ingredients and some people are irritated by homemade soap. However, not all synthetic cleansing ingredients are the same - some are gentler than others which is why it's important to do research. I'm interested in learning in how to manufacture syndet bars because some people I know cannot use handmade soap. It's going to be quite awhile before I make the attempt. There is a lot of information to wade through and I don't depend on just one or two sources. It's a lot of reading. Although mainly it's my budget...

It's certainly a debatable topic. As shown above are two comments - MOGal also doesn't like Ivory scent (it's not the only commercial bar fragrance I dislike) while squyars stated Dove Sensitive doesn't work for her. Everyone has a reason for learning how to make their own soap. I originally did it because I wanted a specific fragrance since I don't care to use body spray or perfume. Then I found out I required less moisturizer which made me happy. :grin:

 

[green soap]

This discussion is so interesting. My mom would also buy Ivory because one of us had sensitive skin (it might have been my dad?). I hated the smell, but for some reason I thought this is what unscented soap smelled like. Even as a child I figured it should be unscented for sensitive skins, right?

I was so pleasantly surprised the first time I made unscented soap, that it did not smell like Ivory! I am laughing at my naivety now.

Going back to the shampoo bars, am I glad these work for me so well! I am not even using ACV rinse. I do not use commercial conditioner either. I have been working on a pre-shampoo hair conditioning oil. It looks like between these two things (shampoo bars and pre-shampoo conditioning oil) I will never need commercial hair products again. I do not want to bash commercial products (I think Dr Bronners is real soap and pretty good) but this gives me a sense of pride and autonomy. And, my hair is looking and feeling better, is that great or what?

 

[Obsidian]

I must be the odd one out, I love the scent of ivory. Its one of the few commercial soaps I can use on my face without breaking out but I stopped buying it years ago because I always felt I was buying air. It is really good for carving though

 

[Robert]

Ever since the 90's, even Ivory started including detergent to help decrease soapscum build-up.

What's Ivory putting in to do that?

This discussion is so interesting. My mom would also buy Ivory because one of us had sensitive skin (it might have been my dad?). I hated the smell, but for some reason I thought this is what unscented soap smelled like. Even as a child I figured it should be unscented for sensitive skins, right?

I was so pleasantly surprised the first time I made unscented soap, that it did not smell like Ivory! I am laughing at my naivety now.

I thought the same thing as a child. I figured perfume smelled sweet, while this smelled like...a burning sensation...so that must be what unscented soap smelled like. Strangely enough, as an adult I got to like it, just have to make sure I don't sniff it too closely.

One strange thing I and some others have noticed is that when I got my skin (usually hands) very dirty (like with ground soil), then the lather of Ivory soap on it stank. I don't know what the phenomenon is -- whether it was a reaction between dirt and soap that the perfume of others covered the effects of, or something about the combination of one or more of Ivory's perfumes with something in dirt.

 

[squyars]

What's Ivory putting in to do that?

Ivory's list of ingredients include: Sodium Tallowate, Sodium Palmate, Water, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Fragrance, Coconut Acid, Palm Kernel Acid, Tallow Acid, Palm Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA.

It is the EDTA that is included to reduce lime scale in your shower. It is considered mostly biodegradable except in conditions of high pH (Ivory's pH is 9.5). It has also been shown to have cytotoxic and genotoxic effects on lab animals.

 

[Hazel]

What source are you basing the above statement? The problem with studies on ingredients is the amount used on lab animals is extremely high as compared to what humans are exposed to when using a product. Plus, some of the tests are based on ingestion and not based upon topical use. Many ingredients cannot be absorbed into the skin unless specifically formulated with a "carrier" to help it move through the skin layers. So, these ingredients are rinsed off. I've seen statements quoted incorrectly or taken out of context from studies to support people's agendas - usually scaring people into buying their products. I was amused awhile back about someone's comment (it wasn't on this forum) about admiring creative marketing but not when it's based on lies and fear mongering.

However, I certainly understand people's concern about ingredients and desire to eliminate exposure to potentially harmful ones. Everyone is different. Some are more sensitive to topical products and some people's skin are more permeable because of varying factors. I just don't like seeing information taken out of context or twisted and used for scare tactics. I find it extremely difficult to read medical studies since I don't have a science background. Even some MSDS can be difficult to understand if a person isn't familiar with them and can easily misrepresent what is stated on them. However, I can see how such tactics have also been helpful for the sellers of handmade products who are honest about their products.

I apologize to the people who have been following this thread. I didn't intend to join in with off-topic remarks and I'll try not to post again.

eta: Please don't take my comments as written to be mean or offensive. I don't want to upset anyone. I just want to know the sources of some statements. I've seen some dubious sites and articles online. I'd be extremely paranoid about ingredients if I based my opinion on just a few which came up first in searches.

 

[squyars]

What source are you basing the above statement? The problem with studies on ingredients is the amount used on lab animals is extremely high as compared to what humans are exposed to when using a product. Plus, some of the tests are based on ingestion and not based upon topical use. Many ingredients cannot be absorbed into the skin unless specifically formulated with a "carrier" to help it move through the skin layers. So, these ingredients are rinsed off. I've seen statements quoted incorrectly or taken out of context from studies to support people's agendas - usually scaring people into buying their products. I was amused awhile back about someone's comment (it wasn't on this forum) about admiring creative marketing but not when it's based on lies and fear mongering.

However, I certainly understand people's concern about ingredients and desire to eliminate exposure to potentially harmful ones. Everyone is different. Some are more sensitive to topical products and some people's skin are more permeable because of varying factors. I just don't like seeing information taken out of context or twisted and used for scare tactics. I find it extremely difficult to read medical studies since I don't have a science background. Even some MSDS can be difficult to understand if a person isn't familiar with them and can easily misrepresent what is stated on them. However, I can see how such tactics have also been helpful for the sellers of handmade products who are honest about their products.

I apologize to the people who have been following this thread. I didn't intend to join in with off-topic remarks and I'll try not to post again.

eta: Please don't take my comments as written to be mean or offensive. I don't want to upset anyone. I just want to know the sources of some statements. I've seen some dubious sites and articles online. I'd be extremely paranoid about ingredients if I based my opinion on just a few which came up first in searches.

Final report on the safety assessment of EDTA, calcium disodium EDTA, diammonium EDTA, dipotassium EDTA, disodium EDTA, TEA-EDTA, tetrasodium EDTA, tripotassium EDTA, trisodium EDTA, HEDTA, and trisodium HEDTA.

Lanigan RS, et al. Show all

Int J Toxicol. 2002;21 Suppl 2:95-142.

Abstract EDTA (ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid) and its salts are substituted diamines. HEDTA (hydroxyethyl ethylenediamine triacetic acid) and its trisodium salt are substituted amines. These ingredients function as chelating agents in cosmetic formulations. The typical concentration of use of EDTA is less than 2%, with the other salts in current use at even lower concentrations. The lowest dose reported to cause a toxic effect in animals was 750 mg/kg/day. These chelating agents are cytotoxic and weakly genotoxic, but not carcinogenic. Oral exposures to EDTA produced adverse reproductive and developmental effects in animals. Clinical tests reported no absorption of an EDTA salt through the skin. These ingredients are likely, however, to affect the passage of other chemicals into the skin because they will chelate calcium. Exposure to EDTA in most cosmetic formulations, therefore, would produce systemic exposure levels well below those seen to be toxic in oral dosing studies. Exposure to EDTA in cosmetic formulations that may be inhaled, however, was a concern. An exposure assessment done using conservative assumptions predicted that the maximum EDTA dose via inhalation of an aerosolized cosmetic formulation is below that shown to produce reproductive or developmental toxicity. Because of the potential to increase the penetration of other chemicals, formulators should continue to be aware of this when combining these ingredients with ingredients that previously have been determined to be safe, primarily because they were not significantly absorbed. Based on the available data, the Cosmetic Ingredient Review Expert Panel found that these ingredients are safe as used in cosmetic formulations.

 

[judymoody]

It's been awhile since I looked at this thread and I found scrolling through the last 39 (!) pages very interesting.

I originally was attracted to CP soaping by the desire to help my eczema-prone daughter (success) and by the idea of making CP shampoo (failure). My various experiments included beer, egg yolk, high castor, and the various EOs mentioned above. Typically my hair would be happy the first day and over the next few days, I'd get build up and my hair felt like gummy, matted, straw. However, I have never tried coconut oil-free or using a cleansing number of zero. I may try again and if it doesn't work for my hair, I'll have a nice mild, conditioning bar of soap to use in the shower.

I don't see the point of citric acid as I am convinced that its only effect is to increase the superfat. There are easier ways to do that.

I still don't understand how the alkaline nature of CP can be good for hair in the long term unless one follows with an acidic rinse. But as so many here have had good experiences, I'm willing to give it one more shot.

I also understand where Hazel is coming from regarding syndets. While her word choice may have been unfortunate, it is true that some people cannot tolerate detergents but there are also people who cannot tolerate CP. Not all syndets are evil. I make syndet shampoo bars with mild surfactants which work very extremely well for my hair. I know a successful CP soapmaker who cannot use the products that she makes and has great success in developing her own CP "detergent bars" which work beautifully on her skin.

So I think the takeaway point is to avoid generalizations and not to leap instantly to the conclusion that if the ingredient is synthetically produced or seems unpronouncable that it must be bad for you.

I also hate the scent of Ivory soap.

 

[Robert]

Ivory's list of ingredients include: Sodium Tallowate, Sodium Palmate, Water, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Fragrance, Coconut Acid, Palm Kernel Acid, Tallow Acid, Palm Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA.

It is the EDTA that is included to reduce lime scale in your shower.

No, there wouldn't be enough of it in there to have such an effect. I'm sure it's a processing aid and/or antirancidity agent instead.

To get enough EDTA in soap that it'd keep lime soaps from forming, you'd have to use an awful lot. The fact that there's more palm acid in there than EDTA tells me that's not the case. Nobody in major soapmaking tries to use EDTA that way. However, it might be included either because at some point in the mfg. process (including storage of ingredients) it counteracts something that could go wrong involving metal equipment, or to prevent rancidity by taking up iron & other transition metals (which EDTA has a greater affinity than it does for major "hardness" cations) that could catalyze such rxns of fats or their soaps.

It is considered mostly biodegradable except in conditions of high pH (Ivory's pH is 9.5). It has also been shown to have cytotoxic and genotoxic effects on lab animals.

I would take those findings with a grain of salt. The reason is that EDTA is used in such a wide variety of materials in biochemical experiments with living things that if it had strong bioaffecting properties it would mess up the results.

The main knock on complexing agents (and the reason NTA was taken out of laundry detergents for some time in the USA as a phosphate replacement, though not in Canada) was that in the environment they would mobilize toxic metals that otherwise would not be very bioavailable. That's not going to be the case in a household situation.

Also, the pH of soap is immaterial in figuring the biodegradability of an ingredient. You don't want it to biodegrade in the intact product, only in the sewage, and the pH of sewage is not going to be determined by one waste substance like soap.

 

[Hazel]

I said I'd try not to post again but here I go again. I googled to find the link to the info posted by squyars. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12396676 Thanks for showing it. I'd forgotten about this site.

Just a few thoughts

The lowest dose reported to cause a toxic effect in animals was 750 mg/kg/day.

I don’t know what animals they’re referring to but if they’re mice, 750 mg is a large dosage to be feeding them. Mice average weights range between 10 – 25 g. I’m not very good with math but at a conservative estimate based upon a 25 g animal would be like feeding a 150 lb person almost 4.5 ounces.

Oral exposures to EDTA produced adverse reproductive and developmental effects in animals.

The adverse effects were based upon ingestion and not topical use. Again, it’s also a lot to be taken internally.

Clinical tests reported no absorption of an EDTA salt through the skin. These ingredients are likely, however, to affect the passage of other chemicals into the skin because they will chelate calcium. Exposure to EDTA in most cosmetic formulations, therefore, would produce systemic exposure levels well below those seen to be toxic in oral dosing studies.

I’m not sure if this is considered a problem or not by the way it is phrased. I know some calcium supplements are chelated as a food supplement for better absorption (allegedly). I stuck allegedly in there because I don’t know if chelation really does improve absorption. There are other minerals which are marketed as “chelated” but this is another huge topic and one I haven’t researched.

I’m also confused by the mention of calcium. I thought chelating agents like EDTA were for binding metal ions in products. But I’m not a scientist so I must have misunderstood.

Exposure to EDTA in cosmetic formulations that may be inhaled, however, was a concern. An exposure assessment done using conservative assumptions predicted that the maximum EDTA dose via inhalation of an aerosolized cosmetic formulation is below that shown to produce reproductive or developmental toxicity

Okay, so don’t inhale it. Good news is if you do inhale, you’re not going to be able to breathe in enough to be harmful.

Because of the potential to increase the penetration of other chemicals, formulators should continue to be aware of this when combining these ingredients with ingredients that previously have been determined to be safe, primarily because they were not significantly absorbed. Based on the available data, the Cosmetic Ingredient Review Expert Panel found that these ingredients are safe as used in cosmetic formulations.

I don’t know why they say it has the potential to increase penetration of other chemicals when it stated clinical tests reported no skin absorption. They did state it will chelate calcium but I don't understand how calcium can be absorbed through the skin. I’m confused. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

 

[Robert]

I know some calcium supplements are chelated as a food supplement for better absorption (allegedly). I stuck allegedly in there because I don’t know if chelation really does improve absorption. There are other minerals which are marketed as “chelated” but this is another huge topic and one I haven’t researched.

Certain swallowed minerals are better absorbed if complexed, and chelation is one form of complexation. It depends what the mineral is complexed with. Magnesium, for instance, is definitely absorbed much better if complexed with certain amino acids or other agents than in inorganic form. If the complexing substance is itself well absorbed, then it can cause the material it complexes to be dragged along in with it. However, if the complexing substance is poorly digested and not well absorbed itself, then it can reduce the rate at which what it's complexing is absorbed.

 

[squyars]

I originally was attracted to CP soaping by the desire to help my eczema-prone daughter (success) and by the idea of making CP shampoo (failure).

I am delighted to hear all the success stories from eczema sufferers from CP soap. That is the entire reason I got into this in the first place. I never even realized people made specific shampoo bars, and when I came across this thread I thought it would be worth giving a try, since I am concerned that it is something in the commercial processed soaps and detergents that aggravate my condition. When I use commercial shampoo, my hands burn; in addition my hair might feel great after my shower, but less than 24 hours later my hair is greasy again.

Not really sure if a shampoo bar is the answer to any of that, but it can't hurt to try. Besides, Obsidian sent me one of her shampoo bars the other day, while I'm waiting for mine to cure. I can at least say that my hands didn't burn. Yay! We will see how it works over time. At the very least, I can use the bar as my daily shampoo, then use regular shampoo infrequently if I get any kind of build-up.

Thanks for your encouraging remarks and personal experience. That is all I'm looking for, not another college degree to track on my wall.

 

[judymoody]

For what it's worth, people who have used my soap in hopes of relief from eczema have benefitted most from

1) unscented bastille made with a mix of goat's milk and chamomille tea as lye liquid,
2) pine tar soap, also unscented, also high in OO

From what I understand eczema can have a lot to do with diet as well as topical applications.

In general, a soap that is high conditioning/low cleansing and free of scent is likely to work best, IME. Addition of finely ground oatmeal or using oat "milk" as your lye liquid might also be nice.

My daughter, by the way, can use any of my soaps, fragranced or not. But her eczema was not too severe and tends to be stress-related.