Selling Soap Before Cure w/ "Don't Use Until" Date?

[Lindy]

Shawnee each recipe must be submitted but they accept different fragrances and/or essential oils in the same filing. We don't have to pay for filing and we don't hear from them unless there is a problem. I've only had them get back to me once because I hadn't named my colourant properly. They don't critique the products at all. That would be more like what happens in Europe where you have to have a safety assessment for each recipe but you can get flexible assessments which allow a bunch of different ingredients then for additives you are charged per extra. Those safety assessments are so expensive! And in July there are a bunch of changes as to what soapmakers and cosmetic makers have to do :shock: Over there you can list your essential oils as parfum but you must list the allergens in each EO and FO.

Maythorn I must admit that at this time of the year I am guilty of pre-buys but that is because my customer base demand it as they are buying them for Christmas gifts and they are not going to be used before the Do Not Use Before date..... I have lots of product that is well and truly cured, but when I run out of something and have it curing they want to be able to buy it.

 

[Seifenblasen]

I agree selling soap with "do not use until" date is bad for business and can be very annoying. However, as long as it does not contain unreacted lye, nobody is harmed.

You should ask this "fellow soaper" Would she purchase wine that wasn't done fermenting? or how about cheese that wasn't done ageing?

Apples and oranges. People routinely buy wine "for laying down". I had some that have been in the cellar for over 10 years. Are they safe to drink when I first got them? Absolutely. But many (not all) continue to improve with aging.

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

True Seifenblasen, most wines get better with age, as most soaps. Are new wines drinkable? yes Are they as good as the could be if left to age? probably not. My point was this, you wouldn't buy a 'wine' that was still working bubbling and frothing away. That's an unfinished product. I feel like fresh soap is, in a way, an unfinished product. I don't feel like it's harmful. And after reading Lindy's posts about the subject, I can see why bushiness would need to sell their soaps in that manner.

 

[Lindy]

Seifenblausen saponification is complete within 48 hours for CP that is allowed to gel and 7 days for un-gelled soap. So why would you think that soapers that sell prior to complete cure 'might' be selling soap that would still contain lye? Interesting comment that...

 

[Seifenblasen]

but today a "fellow soaper" told me at a craft show I participated in that she went home LAST NIGHT to make more soap to sell TODAY.

Last time I checked, between "last night" and "today", that's less than 48 hours. Actually, less than 24 hours.

 

[Seifenblasen]

True Seifenblasen, most wines get better with age, as most soaps. Are new wines drinkable? yes Are they as good as the could be if left to age? probably not. My point was this, you wouldn't buy a 'wine' that was still working bubbling and frothing away. That's an unfinished product. I feel like fresh soap is, in a way, an unfinished product. I don't feel like it's harmful. And after reading Lindy's posts about the subject, I can see why bushiness would need to sell their soaps in that manner.

Got it! I agree 100% that a wine that is still bubbling and frothing is not ready to be sold. :mrgreen: Apologies that I did not quite understand you the first time.

 

[Maythorn]

I guess if the buyer understands it and they don't mind. I find that my uncured soaps aren't as resiliant to my handling them. But once past the cure time I'm seeing that I can take them out to examine how they're doing and if I bump one against my anxious hands or each other, they don't suffer. To band I noticed having to handle the bar a lot to get the cardstock or probably better, just good paper around them.

 

[cerelife]

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents since no one has mentioned presentation/packaging of uncured soap, but I certainly don't mean to downplay the biggest reason IMHO not to sell uncured soap which has already been mentioned several times....it's nowhere near as great as it would be with a full cure. And BTW, maybe I'm a weirdo, but I choose a bar from the middle of each batch when I cut it as "my" bar to do a zap test on just to make sure I haven't jacked things up!
While I don't sell my soap, I DO want it to look nice when I give it away so I created my own packaging (scrapbook paper with a reverse cigar band on top). Even though it's free, I want people to go "OOHH" when they see my soap and adore it even more when they use it!! I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want the people to whom I give my soap to be as passionate about the soap as I am, and feel like they've INDEED been given a little slice of luxury!
That said, I found out the hard way that my pretty packaging of 4 week-old bars looked sloppy and fell off my 8 week-old bars! I can even tell a bit of difference between 6 and 8 week-old bars...I now wait a full 8 weeks to package my soap, but I do realize this is a perk of not selling.
I find it offensive that anyone actually accepting money for their soap wouldn't have enough pride in their product to make sure they were selling the best possible product to their customers! And by this comment, I DON'T mean established soapers doing pre-sells to their regular clients...these folks have obviously built up a clientele based on a great product that people already want!
On the opposite side, I also take offense at soapmakers selling soap so old it retains none of the "scent" described...just has that "old soap" smell...does anyone know what I mean? This is the smell that initially put me off handmade soap years ago...an odd unpleasant smell. I just received a couple soaps this week that I bought online from a soapmaker that I was really excited about. What a disappointment! Both soaps smelled exactly the same..."old soap"...but I'll give them another try because I love the concept of the company and the soap was actually pretty good despite the smell

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

but today a "fellow soaper" told me at a craft show I participated in that she went home LAST NIGHT to make more soap to sell TODAY.

Last time I checked, between "last night" and "today", that's less than 48 hours. Actually, less than 24 hours.

This is the exact comment from this soaper that prompted this post...and when I asked if she did CP and the answer was "yes", I was like "What?!?" :wtf: I can't even unmold some of my soaps in that short of a time period, and I certainly wouldn't have been selling it.

We all have different ethical opinions on this topic. This soaper may well be a nice person with an established customer base and good intentions. But her idea of a quality soap and mine differ. I'm not blasting her name or company on here and I would never disparage another soaper in front of a customer, but I did have customers come from her booth to mine, ask the differences, and purchase from me. I've had quite a few people ask how long my bars would last, as they had bought handmade soap before and it was too soft and didn't last. Besides formulation, I believe the short cure times contribute to this problem. This type of reputation of handmade soap, as well as the fear (myths) that people still have about lye soap, effect all of us that make soap, especially those of us that sell.

This topic wasn't meant to be a lynching of "Do Not Use Until" soapers...I see this practice more and more, and less than 24 hour soap was the most extreme example of it that I've seen. I was curious how accepted this practice is to most soapers. It was one of those "Is it just me?" kind of things... :?

As for me, I will be sticking with my 6 week cure.

 

[Hausfrau007]

Hey, do I have to add a few more weeks of cure for an ungelled milk soap? Like, 8 to 10 weeks? What do you think?

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

I do think ungelled soaps of any kind need a longer cure. I had one batch (no milk) that I gelled half, and ungelled half...and after 4 weeks, the ungelled batch was still able to be rolled into balls :x The gelled version of the same batch was cut after 24 hours and was as hard as "normal" after 4 weeks. I think 8 weeks for an ungelled milk batch sounds about right.

 

[Hausfrau007]

Thank goodness. I was afraid you'd say six months again, like with my castile soap.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Thank goodness. I was afraid you'd say six months again, like with my castile soap.

If you only knew how impatient I am in "real life", you would see the irony in this
I'm not the "Soap Police - Proper Curing Division" (maybe I will advocate for this once I'm crowned Queen)...but in my opinion, 4 weeks is a general cure time for most soap. 6 weeks is better. Castille is really the only soap that NEEDS a really long cure to be a quality soap. All soap can benefit from a longer cure...the only thing that usually suffers over a longer cure period is scent and color, as both can fade...but usually after a year and with proper storage, even longer.

 

[Hausfrau007]

You know what batch seems to be coming along really well? The one I made two weeks ago with GM and probably 40% lard. Seems nice and hard already. I just tried a piece (yum!!), and it foamed up really nice although the PH was still a little high. But so far this one might be one for the books.

 

[Maythorn]

I have even gone to 42% lard and no gell done. I think it can be higher than palm according to Soapcalc and the good results I got out of those recipes with lard at that %. I just hope the bars never smell like lard. So far that's not come up.

 

[Hazel]

You know what batch seems to be coming along really well? The one I made two weeks ago with GM and probably 40% lard. Seems nice and hard already. I just tried a piece (yum!!), and it foamed up really nice although the PH was still a little high. But so far this one might be one for the books.

I've always liked to cure ungelled soaps at least 6 weeks. Confession time! I just had to try a teeny bit of the ungelled Black Friday soap (13 days old). I was wondering how much the salt I added might have suppressed the lather. I couldn't believe the difference. It was much harder than usual for an ungelled soap and the lather was super bubbly. It wasn't even drying considering it hasn't even been 2 weeks since I made it. I'm very pleased.

 

[Hausfrau007]

Yeah, I take scraps, moosh them into wads and try them every so often while the batch cures. For me, it's the only anecdotal way to learn.

 

[Hausfrau007]

Shoot, the post above got away from me ... I meant to say, for me it's the only anecdotal way to learn how my soaps behave during cure.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

I think we ALL test our OWN soaps right out of the mold...I know I do. I only questioned the practice of SELLING it right out of the mold :wink:
I like to test it right out of the mold, then 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and 6 weeks. Some soaps I can see a big difference, some only a slight difference.
This is what sits next to my kitchen sink for "lab testing" :wink: :
[attachment=0:1vqust0l]image.jpg[/attachment:1vqust0l]

 

[chicklet]

I have 3 different "lab specimens" by my kitchen sink and 8 by my bathroom sink!