ROE and any other antioxidants in soap

[user 29721]

Hi everyone,

Wanted to post this and learn what antioxidants others are using in soap (if any at all) and what your experience was like.

Here goes:

1. ROE - fairly inexpensive PPO since you only need 0.05% by weight. Does not alter look/color/smell.
2. I have been using Grapefruit seed extract as antioxidant in all my soaps. No DOS, however all my oils are fresh and not sitting for months before I use them. It does add brownish color to the soap.

Share what you are using as antioxidant and how do you like it! EDTA, Sodium Citrate, Vitamin E, etc.

 

[shunt2011]

I add ROE to my oils when I open the bottle. .05% is what I use. It's smelly in the bottle but I don't notice it when it's added to my other oils.
I've never used GSE as I read ROE was better when I started so that's where I went.

Tetrasodium EDTA and Citric Acid are added primarily as Chelators for hard water but it also seems to help with oxidation. I just ordered some EDTA as I had the wrong on so going to give it a go when it arrives. I don't have soft water or hard water but think it tends more towards the hard side.

There are several other posts on the forum. You'll also find some great information by visiting DeeAnna's site as she has awesome information on just about everything.

Here's her site:
https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.html

 

[earlene]

I use the combination of ROE & EDTA as per Dr. Dunn's experiment here (see page 3):

http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

I am pleased with the results. It truly does reduce soap scum (the EDTA) as well as warding off DOS.

 

[cmzaha]

I use Tetrasodium EDTA and BHT in my soaps with lard, for the simple reason I tend to run into dos problems when using lard

 

[Clarice]

May I ask how you manage to measure out something that only needs 0.05% I assume that is relative to total weight, so for a 1000 gram total weight soap mix I would need 0.5 gram. Or do you just go by drop? Thanks!

 

[earlene]

To measure smaller amounts, I have a separate scale. The bigger one is for my oils and such, but the smaller one is for fragrances and micas, and items that are measured in very small amounts. It measures at smaller increments, but can't handle a lot of weight as a result.

 

[Clarice]

Thank you - do you have special measuring cups too? Sorry to bother! I am imagining leaving behind most of the goodies in the cup unless I scrape and scrape?

 

[user 29721]

I use a plastic pipette and measure ROE in it on a scale, given how small of an amount I need (1.6 g per 7 lbs of oil) it works great.

 

[earlene]

Thank you - do you have special measuring cups too? Sorry to bother! I am imagining leaving behind most of the goodies in the cup unless I scrape and scrape?

I do have dedicated soapmaking measuring cups, but I don't really 'measure' in them. I weigh soap batter in them when I separate the batter for multiple colors. A silicone spatula works extrememly well to scrape out all the remaining soap batter and there is virtually no waste at the end of a soaping session.

Some residual does remain in the stainless steel condiment cups, but a tiny silicone spatula works there, too. When the residual is a fragrance, I just let it sit out until most of it has evaporated before washing. This way, I get to enjoy the fragrance for as long as possible.

 

[DeeAnna]

Weigh the ROE into a small container prefilled with some of the fat -- oh, maybe a half cup or so of fat. Stir well to incorporate the ROE into the fat, then pour that mixture into the main container of fat or soap batter.

Also, after you empty the small container, you can "rinse" the container with a bit of fresh fat -- add a bit more fresh fat to that container, stir, and add that fat to your main container. That will get even more of the ROE where it needs to be.

 

[reeeen4]

I have read that antioxitants won't withstand the ph of soap and so companies just use them for label value and to make their product look more attractive. Also temperature is a factor, a lot of antioxidants are lost once temperatures over 90-100c (194-212F) are reached so if your soap is going through a full gell then they may not survive. So might be worth saving the antioxidants for things like moisturisers.
I could be very wrong though I am not a scientist but am extreemly intersted to know if someone knows for sure if they do survive.

 

[loriag]

I now use EDTA and ROE in every soap batch. I haven't had a DOS issue since I started using them. I followed @DeeAnna 's advise on here and from her classicbells soapy stuff pages. I am very thankful for that advise.

May I ask how you manage to measure out something that only needs 0.05% I assume that is relative to total weight, so for a 1000 gram total weight soap mix I would need 0.5 gram. Or do you just go by drop? Thanks!

I use a precision scale that weighs .01 g. I make smaller batches so sometimes I go as small as .41 g of ROE.

 

[Ravens Craig Apothecary]

I am not familiar with all the abbreviations here.... please what is ROE.... and- is there a place that has a list of the abbreviations? New to SMF thanks!

 

[earlene]

Rosemary Oleo Resin = ROE. Do not confuse it with any other Rosemary, as it is NOT an EO. More on how to prevent DOS: http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

The abbreviations is here in the Beginner's Forum.

 

[DeeAnna]

I have read that antioxitants won't withstand the ph of soap... Also temperature is a factor, ... so if your soap is going through a full gell then they may not survive. ...

Whoa there! Need to slow down on the sweeping blanket statements. It's important to research each specific chemical to know for sure what it can and can't tolerate and what it will and won't do. It might well be true that some antioxidants are pH or temperature sensitive, but it's not true that ALL are.

ROE is an antioxidant suitable for use in soap, gel or no gel. BHT is another antioxidant that works and it is widely used in commercial soap. In either case, these antioxidants are going to perform at their best if you add it to fats before they're put into storage, rather than just add an antioxidant at the time you make soap.

If you're talking about antioxidants in the sense that they "nourish" the skin, that's not the point of this thread. In this discussion, we're talking about antioxidants for extending the shelf life of soap.

 

[Ravens Craig Apothecary]

Rosemary Oleo Resin = ROE. Do not confuse it with any other Rosemary, as it is NOT an EO. More on how to prevent DOS: http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

The abbreviations is here in the Beginner's Forum.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I really appreciate this!!

 

[reeeen4]

Whoa there! Need to slow down on the sweeping blanket statements. It's important to research each specific chemical to know for sure what it can and can't tolerate and what it will and won't do. It might well be true that some antioxidants are pH or temperature sensitive, but it's not true that ALL are.

ROE is an antioxidant suitable for use in soap, gel or no gel. BHT is another antioxidant that works and it is widely used in commercial soap. In either case, these antioxidants are going to perform at their best if you add it to fats before they're put into storage, rather than just add an antioxidant at the time you make soap.

If you're talking about antioxidants in the sense that they "nourish" the skin, that's not the point of this thread. In this discussion, we're talking about antioxidants for extending the shelf life of soap.

Sorry I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement, that's why I said I could be wrong and that I wasn't a scientist and invited anyone to correct me. So thank you for that I have learnt something new, the study I read was about the antioxitands of a dozen botanicals that were tested in environments of a ph above 7.8 and 8.5 and most didn't withstand the rise in ph. I am really interested in the science behind these things and are always reading and learning new things I find it fascinating but don't always 100% understand everything I've read sadly

I didn't know this post was about extending the shelf life of soap as the OP didn't say that specifically so my appologies.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...the study I read was about the antioxitands of a dozen botanicals..."

If you want feedback about this study and whether the author's point of view is valid, why not post a link and ask for help in interpreting the information? If you don't have a science background, it can be easy to miss the fine points of what people say. There are a fair number of science-y folks here who can probably wade through the details and help you out.

"...I didn't know this post was about extending the shelf life of soap as the OP didn't say that specifically..."

The OP said he's not seeing DOS (rancidity) in his soap. He didn't say anything about antioxidants in regards to their cosmetic or drug effects. But small matter.

 

[reeeen4]

Ooo that's a good idea thanks I will definitly post next time I need help interpreting info!

 

[Ravens Craig Apothecary]

Is Rosemary Oleoresin Extract the same as the rosemary extract that is available in powder or liquid form? I was perusing outlets that sell it, and the description appears the same. I have rosemary extract in powder form.