Reverse engineering "luxury bar soap" recipes

[SideDoorSoaps]

The luxury soap has the signature brand scents - that is the "luxury" for the price tag and the name. I have tried some of those soaps - my sister used to work at some upscale mall in Boston and get me expensive things like soap and candles but I never thought the quality was worth that price. But really affluent people don't typically shop at craft fairs where a lot of homemade soapers I see who have really nice soap ingredients.

trying to understand why they're formulated the way they are.

so how can we make a good soap with just 2 main ingredients?

It's marketing and branding and the ingredients I think come down to price point for mass manufacturing. Also reminds me why Tiffany can sell a paperclip for stupid amount of money. As artisanal soapmakers, i think many of us know those ingredients are meh. You could make just a "good soap" but why would you unless you're just in it for the money.

What I do like about milled soap is the lather and how long-lasting they are. As a teen, I would get the boutique "French-milled" soap because a lot smelled so pretty and I had a boyfriend who would say I smelled good like a soap factory. That comment always stuck with me. He doesn't know that I make soap now.

 

[earlene]

The title of your thread is misleading, if you want us to only talk about why. So there is your problem as to why you got the responses you got.

Ignoring your title....

The question I'm asking you experienced soapmakers is: why isn't anyone in our circles making a 2-oil soap with just Palm and Palm Kernel Oils?

Why artisan soapers are not making soap made of only palm oil and PKO? (or any other simple 2-oil recipe?) Customer base.

If my customer base is me, I want a soap that I like, so I make it with whatever I like.

If my customer base is vegan and anti-palm, I don't use palm at all.

If my customer base has an allergy to [whatever - fill in the blank], I don't use whatever.

You see the trend?

If I developed my formula to produce a particular result and get high praise for the resulting soap, that's what I stick with because the people who like my soap are the ones I want to satisfy.

What has happened for many soapers is that they/we started making soap and saw a huge improvement in how our skin felt/looked, etc. after switching to the soap we make versus the soap we used to buy in the grocer or where ever we bought commercial soap. We did not necessarily plan to go into business and compete with the commercial soap industry - we just wanted something that was better for our own skin - something BETTER than the soap commercially available that we DID NOT LIKE. After discovering that our soap was superior on our own skin and in our own experience, we shared with family and friends who also (more often than not) had the same experience as we and told us that our soap was far better than the commercial brands they had been using. Then some chose to or were encouraged to start selling their products, hence developing a paying customer base. In some cases, we develop formulas for a particular need, like I did for my Blacksmith brother, and others have done for family or friends who other particular needs due to allergies, skin conditions, etc.

So, yes, I say the reason we don't do the simple canned 2-oil recipe to which you refer is customer base.

If you are happy with regular run-of-the-mill commercial soap, I don't think you'd be making soap, would you? So what was your reason for switching?

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

The title of your thread is misleading, if you want us to only talk about why. So there is your problem as to why you got the responses you got.
View attachment 61839

Ignoring your title....



Why artisan soapers are not making soap made of only palm oil and PKO? (or any other simple 2-oil recipe?) Customer base.

If my customer base is me, I want a soap that I like, so I make it with whatever I like.

If my customer base is vegan and anti-palm, I don't use palm at all.

If my customer base has an allergy to [whatever - fill in the blank], I don't use whatever.

You see the trend?

If I developed my formula to produce a particular result and get high praise for the resulting soap, that's what I stick with because the people who like my soap are the ones I want to satisfy.

What has happened for many soapers is that they/we started making soap and saw a huge improvement in how our skin felt/looked, etc. after switching to the soap we make versus the soap we used to buy in the grocer or where ever we bought commercial soap. We did not necessarily plan to go into business and compete with the commercial soap industry - we just wanted something that was better for our own skin - something BETTER than the soap commercially available that we DID NOT LIKE. After discovering that our soap was superior on our own skin and in our own experience, we shared with family and friends who also (more often than not) had the same experience as we and told us that our soap was far better than the commercial brands they had been using. Then some chose to or were encouraged to start selling their products, hence developing a paying customer base. In some cases, we develop formulas for a particular need, like I did for my Blacksmith brother, and others have done for family or friends who other particular needs due to allergies, skin conditions, etc.

So, yes, I say the reason we don't do the simple canned 2-oil recipe to which you refer is customer base.

If you are happy with regular run-of-the-mill commercial soap, I don't think you'd be making soap, would you? So what was your reason for switching?

Well said & sums it up.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Many luxury soaps seem to only use 2 major ingredients to make their soaps: Palm Oil and Palm Kernel Oil.

True. Early in my soapmaking journey, I discovered the same thing.

Palm Kernel Oil behaves nearly identical to Coconut Oil -- then what does it matter?

PKO & Palm, IMHO and IME has a more elegant feel. Try it. You will like it.

Here is my version (with a few tweaks) : ZANY'S Palm Olive Soap

In addition to being a lovely shower bar, my hubby used it as a shampoo bar. After rinsing with cool to cold water, it left his gorgeous shock of white hair glistening, with no trace of yellow! It's a good thing.

 

[Johnez]

I gravitated toward soap making as a wetshaver and became curious about not only the shave soap recipes but also the bar soaps some companies made. I had the same reaction OP. The big guys all seem to use the same set of ingredients. No Mango Butter, no Sweet Almond Oil, no Lard (ok that's not surprising lol!). It struck me as kind of funny how similar everybody's recipe was. When I found they triple mill their soap, I checked that out. Apparently that requires some heavy machinery and specialized equipment, not feasible for the small time artisan. So I wondered if there was an equivalent, and it appears our "triple mill" is a very long cure time.

This presents a great opportunity for artisan soap makers to differentiate. Ingredients, "story," heck our process sounds even better IMO. I mean what is triple milled? Sounds like something that comes from a factory belching out smoke. Nah...gimme "cured," the longer the better.

 

[TheGecko]

First of all, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. So knock off the attitude.

What do these professional soapers know that we don't?

Absolutely nothing. To start with, they are NOT 'professional soapers'...they are companies in the business of making a profit and "soap" just happens to be a product that allows them to do that.

As noted by @DeeAnna...ingredients like Palm Oil, Palm Kernel Oil, Coconut Oil and even Tallow are cheap. The "and/or" simply allows them to purchase what is cheaper at the time WITHOUT having to update their labels. I do something similar with my labels with my "May contain scent and colorants"; it allows me to purchase them in bulk at a good price.

Some try to hide this by stating "Sodium Cocoate and/or Sodium Palm Kernelate"

They aren't 'hiding' anything...what goes IN the pot is Coconut Oil, Water and Sodium Hydroxide. What comes OUT of the pot is Sodium Cocoate. This is technically and legally correct and then they don't have to use that dirty word: Sodium Hydroxide. OMG, you make soap with Drano?!? Isn't that a caustic chemical that can burn you?!? And you want me to wash my baby with it?!? I thought you said your soap was natural...vegan...organic?!?

It looks like many are adding glycerine

Yep, you will find that most commercially produced soap lists glycerin as an ingredient like it's supposed to be some big deal...but in reality it's not. Glycerin is a natural by-product of soap making...the difference between us (artisan soap makers) and them (commercial soap companies) is that we don't take it out and then add a little of it back in and sell the rest at a huge profit.

so how can we make a good soap with just 2 main ingredients?

The same way you can make a good soap with just a single ingredient. Folks have been using Olive Oil or Tallow for thousands of years...it was all there was. One of the oldest known soaps is Aleppo Soap...it's made with Olive Laurel Berry Oils.

The point of my post wasn't to segment the market into luxury vs. non-luxury. --- it was to demonstrate how ESTABLISHED brands seem to only use TWO main ingredients in their soap. Something that none of the "homemade" brands do.

First of all, it's NOT 'homemade'...it's 'handmade'. Second, soap...whether produced commercially in a factory on a mass scale or in someone's crock pot in their kitchen HAS to follow the same exact rules: Fat + Alkali = Soap. Strip off all those fancy labels and I have no doubt that my 'homemade' soap would come out on top. And third...we're artisan soap makers, not huge corporations whose 'name' allows us to sell crap.

whether it's triple-milled or not -- I not really sure if it matters

Almost all commercially produced soap has to be milled...if it wasn't, it would have the same rough appearance as any other Hot Process soap and folks aren't going to pay $38 for something that looks 'homemade'.

or am I looking at this wrong?

You are. It kind of like this...I worked one season at the local cannery. Corn came in...canned corn, frozen corn, corn on the cob went out. Now the corn came from different fields around the area, but it was all the same sweet corn. But the corn going out...all carried different labels. Some of those labels were local, some regional, some name brand. Until I worked at the cannery, I used to only buy 'name brand' because I thought it was better. Turns out it was the same corn as the store brand.

You're essentially doing the same thing...you're looking at the label. And because of the label, you're thinking that the ingredients must be better. That because they are some big name brand with their CEOs and CFOs than they must know something that we, with our kitchens and Dollar Store bowls don't.

The question I'm asking you experienced soapmakers is: why isn't anyone in our circles making a 2-oil soap with just Palm and Palm Kernel Oils?
Royalty doesn't. Ophelia doesn't. Ariane Arsenault doesn't. Missouri River doesn't. Dr. Squatch doesn't. Jenka... well, whatever. So WHY NOT?

Because we don't already have a billion dollar label that allow us to sell crap?

We're artisan soap makers, not huge corporations looking to increase our profits. We care about the products we sell, it's why the majority of us are in the business to begin with (though we may not have started with that intent). Katie is where she is because she sells a good quality soap. So does Julie, and Ariane and Holly. And clever advertising aside...Dr Squatch is pretty decent soap too.

 

[kagey]

Thanks all for responses.
This was a very enlightening discussion!

To recap:
PO & PKO only recipes will only create "crap soap."
So, these companies go through the expensive process of triple-milling it (provided that they all do that) to give it a more luxurious feel.
Then, they add their signature scent to the "crap soap" which allows them to sell it for a premium.
And they do this because PO & PKO are the cheapest oils?
Is this the conclusion of this forum?

WOW!

You'll just have to color me surprised.
Why would they all use the same basic recipe?
Why Palm Oil & Palm Kernel Oil &/or Coconut Oil?
Cost is surely a consideration.
But wouldn't a company in the business of promoting skin health want to use ingredients that are good for their customers?
Why wouldn't at least one stray from this basic formula?

Especially since many of these soaps are sold as moisturizing bar soaps - and yet an 80/20 PO/PKO doesn't even give you a score that's even in the moisturizing range of 44-69!
... which probably explains why all these soap makers add glycerine and host of other additives before going to market.

It seems to me that @Mobjack Bay probably hit on the real answer that I didn't fully consider:
If all these soaps are milled (or triple milled) - then the companies are using theses oils because these are the best oils that (possibly) saponify the quickest and don't gum up the machinery.
The process dictates the recipe...

And since they can always pour in additives in the final process (to improve soap performance) - they base oils are NOT chosen for their soap calc performance properties -- but maybe only for final feel (after being milled) as @Marsi explains.

I'm sorry @earlene that you feel my title was misleading.
But I was trying to reverse engineer luxury soap brands and attempting to understand why they choose the ingredients that they did ... as well as why are all of them using the same ones?

You'll find the same basic ingredients in:
Hermes
Pre de Provence
Marlowe
Yardley London (although they use Tallow instead of Palm Oil and sometime Coconut Oil)
Caswell-Massey
L'Occitane
Fulton & Roark

Yeah - there are other brands that are not technically "luxury" that use this...
Duke Cannon
Art of Sport
Tom's of Maine

Which I thought begged the question -- WHY are they using this basic formula?
And can we duplicate this ourselves?
Now, I think we know the answer...

* * * *
Thanks @Mobjack Bay for your insight that all are probably commercially milled. I was so intent on understanding the recipe that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. When I review this in the context of what works best for milling soaps - it makes more sense.

Thank you @DeeAnna for the explanation of the "and/or" labeling.
It felt deceptive to me but now your explanation as to why they do that makes perfect sense.

Thank you also to @The Efficacious Gentleman for your response - and apologies if my use of the word "luxury" was somehow offensive. Not my intent.

Also sorry @TheGecko if you felt I gave some "tude." My passion for soapmaking sometimes gets the better of me. In the future, I'll be sure not to respond with something like:

Because we don't already have a billion dollar label that allow us to sell crap?

As some might find this is condescending.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

When I found they triple mill their soap, I checked that out. Apparently that requires some heavy machinery and specialized equipment, not feasible for the small time artisan.

While that is true, the closest thing we have to the "feel" of milled soap I found, is the Basic Trinity of Oils Soap which I made for my DIL's father recently. His supplier was no longer making it. So I took a look at the ingredients and re-engineered it. I was really surprised how awesome it felt -- after giving it a test drive, I liked it so much that I thought, I'll never have to make another soap again. This is it! (Yeah, right. Like that's gonna happen. )

 

[Johnez]

While that is true, the closest thing we have to the "feel" of milled soap I found, is the Basic Trinity of Oils Soap which I made for my DIL's father recently. His supplier was no longer making it. So I took a look at the ingredients and re-engineered it. I was really surprised how awesome it felt -- after giving it a test drive, I liked it so much that I thought, I'll never have to make another soap again. This is it! (Yeah, right. Like that's gonna happen. )

One of my favorite bars right now is a Trinity with lard. Absolutely love it. I'm not super keen on palm, but I think it's my responsibility to give it a try. Recipe bookmarked and saved. Also love that name.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It wasn't the use of the word luxury, but how you tried to close down the discussion which had dared to step off of your planned route in to territory which was actually very useful.

But that aside, what makes you think that these companies are in the business of promoting skin health?

And, in a milled soap, what makes you think this recipe is bad for the skin?

And if it's not terrible soap and the ingredients are easy to get and (in many cases) the actual manufacturing is done for more than one brand in one location - why would they have a different recipe? They are not artisan soap makers! Many of them aren't even soap makers in any meaningful way, but they let someone else make the soap with their branding

 

[kagey]

@Zany_in_CO
Your green mountain veggie formula looks a lot like what you can find at Dr. Squatch, Bearsville and Sudsy Bear. Which begs the question: how do you differentiate yourself from the market when you're imitating it?

 

[lenarenee]

in the most basic sense, french milling gives the soap uniformity and density

excess air and water is removed
the soaps crystalline stucture is made more uniform (aligned, smaller and tightly packed)
additives and fragrances are added towards the end of the process (heat and reaction damage to delicate additives and fragrances is reduced)

the effect?
triple milled soap is heavy and smooth, hard and shiny
the soap feels slippery and lathers easily in use
the scent lasts for a long time

visually the texture is fine grained and (usually) consistently one colour

old triple milled soap cracks along the length

Thank you for that information - do you know a resource where I can learn more? It's interesting how physically manipulating the soap makes a difference. The palm/pko soap I made sure could have benefitted from some milling as the texture was...chalky in appearance, filled with minute holes. Wonder if I saved one...

 

[AliOop]

Thank you for that information - do you know a resource where I can learn more? It's interesting how physically manipulating the soap makes a difference. The palm/pko soap I made sure could have benefitted from some milling as the texture was...chalky in appearance, filled with minute holes. Wonder if I saved one...

Commercial milling machines are extremely expensive, unfortunately - far too expensive for artisan soapmakers to purchase and use for our soaps.

 

[SirSoapsAlot]

thanks for replies all -- but I'd like us to focus on the question at hand, please.

@dibbles - upscale, overpriced, underpriced... whatever. The point of my post wasn't to segment the market into luxury vs. non-luxury. --- it was to demonstrate how ESTABLISHED brands seem to only use TWO main ingredients in their soap. Something that none of the "homemade" brands do.
Don't you find that intriguing?

@Mobjack Bay - whether it's triple-milled or not -- I not really sure if it matters.
The "noodles" that are used in triple-milled soap are made with saponified oils. Saponified oils means that at one point, they were fatty acids mixed with lye water... whether it was made in hot process or cold process -- can't we can replicate the basic recipe ourselves?...

Recognizing that the play-doh machine that squeezes the noodles out, remixes them and squeezes them out again and again -- is not part of the process we can easily do in our garage... it seems that this happens to refine the soap. This doesn't negate that the soap is made with 2 types of saponified oils... or am I looking at this wrong?

@cmzaha - my point of the "hiding" is not that they're using Sodium Palmate vs Palm Oil vs saponified Palm Oil... it's that they use the "and/or" moniker. To mass-produce their soaps - you would think that they would know whether or not they're using Sodium Palm Kernelate OR Sodium Coconate OR both. No? I mean, it's not like they get up one morning and say "what if we tried more palm kernel oil and less coconut oil?" It's a formula. They know the amounts. It's not and/or -- it either is or it isn't... but again I digress. That's not the question of the post!

The question I'm asking you experienced soapmakers is: why isn't anyone in our circles making a 2-oil soap with just Palm and Palm Kernel Oils?
Royalty doesn't. Ophelia doesn't. Ariane Arsenault doesn't. Missouri River doesn't. Dr. Squatch doesn't. Jenka... well, whatever. So WHY NOT?

As I've stated in my opening statement -- I'm trying to understand the "why." If you don't know, that's okay. I don't either. But there must a be a reason... no?

I wouldn't assume that because they are doing only 2 ingredients that it is better somehow. It's just easy to mass produce and it's cheaper. They can call it whatever they like, "Luxury". That words holds no value other than the price tag. As with anything, you wouldn't expect good health to come from a plate of food with one ingredient. Well rounded recipes will have more attributes to contribute, hopefully, to the final product. You can make a bar of soap with only 1 oil if you wanted and depending on the oil, it could work well as "soap". Also, you would quickly get bored of watching YouTube videos of just coconut oil soap. haha I have asked myself, why I complicate recipes when I could take the easy approach and it would work quite well, but I am trying to offer something special with my soap... something I would like to use myself and not just something cheap that checks the boxes. Some people will appreciate it and others wont, but I make it for those that will. It's not a superficial soap that carries a fancy name. Some people are into that. I guess that's where knowing your market and who you are making for matters.

 

[lenarenee]

@kagey. Have you made a 2 ingredient palm and pko soap? This may be the best way for you to answer your question. Mine was lousy, but an interesting experiment. I was trying to copy an Australian company's soap I found and liked. Found out their use soap noodles - mass produced in Asia with palm and pko. Then they added ingredients at the European manufacturing plant (I believe it was shea butter and rice bran oil), and slapped their Australian branding on it.

Btw, the brands you posted - I followed the links and found many of them have ingredients in their soaps like olive oil, shea butter, aloe vera, almond oil...etc.

I agree that luxury means nothing. A local candle supply business near me advertises their fragrance oils as Luxury and charge almost double for them. Makers use their oils, then slap "Luxury" on their candles and double their price. Seriously; newbie candle makers charging $80 for "luxury" candles with average to poor performance. There's nothing in those fragrance oils that can't or isn't used by any other supplier. Sometimes a word is just a word.

Commercial milling machines are extremely expensive, unfortunately - far too expensive for artisan soapmakers to purchase and use for our soaps.

Yes thank you, I know. I'm just curious about the process and why it makes a difference. I have no interested in "squishing" soap myself.

 

[kagey]

It wasn't the use of the word luxury, but how you tried to close down the discussion which had dared to step off of your planned route in to territory which was actually very useful.

sorry - I felt I had to keep the discussion on track - otherwise it would go off into a tangent that provides no useful information to the question. I have seen multiple threads here devolve from a very specific question to a conversation about how certain soapers have extremely sensitive skin and can only bear X% of coconut oil or would never use glass in soaping... etc.
Since I was preparing to soap again, I was hoping to find an answer as to why professional recipes differ so greatly from mine and other handmade soaps - before I added the lye to my water.

If you found a line of discussion interesting - I encourage you to post a question or statement that you want others to give an opinion about. In this case, I was seeking a viable reason for the use of PO & PKO exclusively.

But that aside, what makes you think that these companies are in the business of promoting skin health?

And, in a milled soap, what makes you think this recipe is bad for the skin?

Call me crazy, but when your entire product line is composed of soaps, face creams, lotions, etc... I'll be the first to conclude that you're trying to help me achieve healthier skin.

As for "bad for the skin" -- I don't recall ever saying such.
But I did see some folk imply that PO & PKO is a "crappy recipe" that's "cheap" and only used "to increase margins." Sounds to me that this line of reasoning runs counter to the purpose of many of these companies.

 

[SoapDaddy70]

@Zany_in_CO
Your green mountain veggie formula looks a lot like what you can find at Dr. Squatch, Bearsville and Sudsy Bear. Which begs the question: how do you differentiate yourself from the market when you're imitating it?

Marketing, marketing and more marketing. Only reason I even started making soap was because I saw a Dr. Squatch commercial on You Tube and fell for the marketing and ordered a few bars. After that I was intrigued and started researching how to make your own soap and that was it. I will never buy another bar of soap from Dr Squatch again. Also there are rumours that Dr Squatch is only a marketing machine and the soap they sell is made by the Soap Guy and they just mark it up and spend all their money on advertising.

 

[linne1gi]

Just my two cents, but I agree with DeeAnna - "They're in the business of making inexpensive soap from readily available commodity oils and selling it as a luxury soap for a goodly markup. There's no intrigue to be found in that." AND - my opinion, the scent sells, not the product.

 

[lenarenee]

@Zany_in_CO
Your green mountain veggie formula looks a lot like what you can find at Dr. Squatch, Bearsville and Sudsy Bear. Which begs the question: how do you differentiate yourself from the market when you're imitating it?

Sounds like her motivation was to please a family member. But also knowing Zany - she's curious and likes to test her skills.

Are you thinking of selling and trying to find a way to differentiate yourself? It's all about marketing. Can you afford some funds for Fiverr? There are various levels of skilled people, I can recommend one of them, but he's not cheap. However, he's good at what he does and has some experience with soap.

 

[CatahoulaBubble]

sorry - I felt I had to keep the discussion on track - otherwise it would go off into a tangent that provides no useful information to the question. I have seen multiple threads here devolve from a very specific question to a conversation about how certain soapers have extremely sensitive skin and can only bear X% of coconut oil or would never use glass in soaping... etc.
Since I was preparing to soap again, I was hoping to find an answer as to why professional recipes differ so greatly from mine and other handmade soaps - before I added the lye to my water.

If you found a line of discussion interesting - I encourage you to post a question or statement that you want others to give an opinion about. In this case, I was seeking a viable reason for the use of PO & PKO exclusively.


Call me crazy, but when your entire product line is composed of soaps, face creams, lotions, etc... I'll be the first to conclude that you're trying to help me achieve healthier skin.

As for "bad for the skin" -- I don't recall ever saying such.
But I did see some folk imply that PO & PKO is a "crappy recipe" that's "cheap" and only used "to increase margins." Sounds to me that this line of reasoning runs counter to the purpose of many of these companies.

You really shouldn't assume that a company that markets skin products actually cares about the health of your skin. There are so many companies that produce creams, lotions, soaps/detergents, cleansers and other things that are promoted as being good for your skin but actually are not healthy or good for your skin. They just have a good advertising and marketing team.