Respect, Diversity, & Potential Shifts in Forum Behavior

[LBussy]

I've written probably 4 replies to this thread and ditched every one of them. Part of the reason is that I can't bring myself to read all these posts, so I really do not know what has been said.

Ruthie, if it helps: everyone has been very polite ... it's just a discussion about how we can keep it that way. We differ in opinions on that matter but suffice it to say everyone's been on their best behavior. I do agree this is one of the most courteous places I have been on the Internet.

 

[Susie]

Ruthie, the TLDR(too long, didn't read) version basically comes down to this:

There is a time and place for sharing personal info. And as long as people avoid driving their opinions down others' throats or being ugly, we have no new restrictions.

 

[Ruthie]

...oh, and I meant to add a quote from Ellen Degeneres: "Do we have to know who's gay and who's straight? Can't we love everybody and judge them by the car they drive?"

 

[fuzz-juzz]

I didn't see issue in said posts.
I saw Pinkcupcake's post as an invitation to meet her family and also what CaraBou said was I guess, missunderstood a bit.
Of course it doesn't matter who's believing in what and what one does in private life. But we are humans, and love to talk a lot and those kind of topics will pop up in discussions. I belong to few forums, parenting mainly, but religion, politics and different sexual orientation pop up in discussions often. And let me tell you, it's not always nice. Some people often make me lose faith in humanity and they are parents, shaping little human's minds!
As long as we are kind, understanding and civilised towards others, like we are in this friendly forum, I don't see the problem.

 

[CaraBou]

I propose we keep as much as possible of the potentially controversial stuff in the General Chat forum, and even then, only when it is at least somewhat on topic (like "getting to know you"). That would keep it out of the soap talk (which we're already pretty good about).

One place for improvement is in the signature file. Since that goes everywhere that you go, it leaves an indelible mark where it doesn't belong. Soap is so perfect -- why drag in controversy?

 

[Susie]

Censorship is censorship. No matter who it is censoring.

I have kept my mouth shut over posts with expletives peppering their titles and content. Even though it offends me, and I think it has no place in a civilized forum. I support their right to free speech. I support everyone's right to free speech even if I do not share their opinions. As long as no one is being ugly to someone else, they have the right to post what they want, and that includes signatures.

Tolerance and respect either works both ways, or it does not work at all.

 

[LBussy]

I don't believe in censorship (although I do believe in active moderation if we have a butt-head). I have been on forums where people just could not keep themselves from going over the top. I believe (me, not a statement of fact) that this is more common when it's just men. We react to a challenge among men in different ways. I think you ladies are a calming influence .. on me anyway. :razz:

 

[CaraBou]

I don't believe in censorship (although I do believe in active moderation if we have a butt-head).

That's an interesting statement given how this whole thread started:

I think pretty much any "ism" or "ist" is best left at the door in any conversation we wish to remain consistently polite.

Glad I have a strong sense of self, instead of believing my body parts were swapped or otherwise deformed at birth.

Additionally, I wasn't talking about censorship; I was promoting people to keep respect for diversity in mind before tracking dogma through non-General Chat forums via their signature files. We all have different values; asserting yours in the Beginner's Soap Making Forum, CP Soap Forum, etc., can be preachy, intimidating, or inciteful. This may be inadvertent, but consciousness can prevail. I am only responsible for myself, and I will do my best.

 

[LBussy]

See, we're all agreeing here but you seem to want to argue more - with me at least.

I think people may contribute to a more effective online environment if they leave aside potentially polarizing overt statements. Yes it is true that when I say "this is my wife" I am claiming heterosexuality (but only if you know I am a man to begin with.) What gets touchy is when people come out and make a proclamation. What if you were a woman of color and someone else comes out and says "I can't believe I'm the only black woman here!" Do we have issue with a skin color not our own? Of course not! What may cause friction however is if there IS another woman of color. What does that mean to her? Does it mean she should have proclaimed herself first? Did she lose some credibility by not making sure everyone knows? I should never say "this is my Jewish friend" but saying "I am Jewish" is somehow protected because we are afraid of alienating a group identified to be different by suggesting they not say it? What does it matter either way to the conversation if it's just introducing yourself?

I am not suggesting "there ought to be a rule", I am suggesting that sometimes people say things they really mean to be innocuous but the impact is sometimes not. I don't think I have to change who I am for anybody, but I want to know if HOW I say things might be taken incorrectly. I'm not suggesting we enlist the help of the PC police either ... just that sometimes people want to know if words they have chosen come across in a manner they did not intend. If they tell me to mind my own business I will, but I treat others the way I like to be treated and that's something I do like to hear about.

I'll give you an example of something I did: On the shaving forum we were talking about this forum. I was talking about how nice and helpful everyone here was. I said something to the effect of it reminded me of a bunch of nice little old ladies. Someone rightfully called me out, asking if I thought everyone here was old. That's NOT what I mean, just that a warm, inviting, creative atmosphere sort of fosters images of my own grandmother in her domain (kitchen). She was a very crafty person. To me, in that post, I meant it as a compliment but it was a poor choice of words without a VERY long explanation. Should I be allowed to have a mental picture of my Grandmother's crafts while I am here? Should I feel as invited as I did in my Grandmother's kitchen? I absolutely should! Should I be allowed to share that feeling? Yes! If I want to avoid someone getting bent outta shape should I maybe use a different way to say it? Absolutely!

PinkCupcake and I exchanged a couple PM's at the time, we're not mad at each other. She understand me the best I can explain it and I understand her. I'm pretty sure all the talk here is not serving any real purpose other than to decide whether or not I had the right to suggest we voluntarily leave overt statements about polarizing differences at the door. If you don't agree with me, that's fine too. I can however guarantee you will not change my mind about the way I feel. I may not change the way PinkCupcake feels about it either if that was an intentional choice of words. However, if as I believe, she meant it completely different she deserves to know how it could have been received.

Now as soon as I figure out how to unsubscribe from this thread I will - if I keep receiving emails telling me someone disagrees I'm bound to be taunted into opening my mouth again. I'm only human. If you really want to disagree with me directly you are welcome to send me a PM. I accept that this may be seen as the electronic form of the last word so I encourage someone to post a reply so that does not stand. I'm just not going to read it or discuss it anymore.

 

[Susie]

Additionally, I wasn't talking about censorship; I was promoting people to keep respect for diversity in mind before tracking dogma through non-General Chat forums via their signature files. We all have different values; asserting yours in the Beginner's Soap Making Forum, CP Soap Forum, etc., can be preachy, intimidating, or inciteful. This may be inadvertent, but consciousness can prevail. I am only responsible for myself, and I will do my best.

I am sorry to have to tell you this, but, if someone gets to dictate what I put in my signature, it is censorship. And furthermore, respect for diversity means you have to respect my rights also.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Let's try to keep it respectful all round - some of the last few comments seem to be going against that idea.

And I do mean for all sides - what is 'dogma' to one person is 'faith' to another. That must also be respected if we have to respect different views.

And where do we stop with sigs? No religious quotes? What about philosophy? Quotes from people who are against religion would then be disrespectful to people who follow religions, so do we ban all quotations from sigs?

I once worked in an office where they tried to be very prescriptive about what could and could not be eaten at the desk. But then each answer brings up 10 questions and it ends up being a nightmare. I don't want to have to do that sort of thing here!

 

[Saponista]

Respect, Diversity, & Potential Shifts in Forum Behavior

I disagree with the huge issue you have made out of something so small LBussy.

 

[IrishLass]

The good Gent makes several good points.

In the sprit of keeping things respectful and from the danger of going off the rails (again), I want to say that I really like Lee's suggestion: "If you really want to disagree with me directly you are welcome to send me a PM."

I couldn't agree more. As human beings, it's a given that that we will not always agree with each other on any number of fronts, but in order to keep things respectful and from taking a turn for the worse on the forum, I suggest that if you have a direct disagreement with someone, please, 'take it outside', as the saying goes. There's no need to involve everyone else in the disagreement in order to engage with the one person with which you have the real disagreement.

As far as siggies go, no censorship need be applied as long as they adhere to the stated Forum Rules laid down here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13


IrishLass

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I disagree with the huge issue you have made out of something so small LBussy.

Now here is an interesting point - If we have to respect your right to say this, we have to also respect Lee's right to say what he said in the first place.

The UK has a curious issue at the moment - Everyone has the right to faith and also to sexuality. But then of course these sometimes go against each other (in which case, the right to sexuality has the advantage) and it is similar to what we have here.

But Lee has already admitted that the way he said it was not the best. He has cleared things with the person involved. Lee didn't start this thread, so if anything, Carabou and the other people posting here are making the huge issue out of it, not Lee.

Now, again I want to remind people to keep things civil. Any statement of an opposing view should be put over well, ideally with something to back it up - otherwise it is just a stamp of the foot and a crossing of the arms which brings nothing forward.

 

[Ruthie]

So do I understand this correctly that everyone was kind and Kum By Ya until I started reading? But now things sound kinda touchy.

In an earlier time here I had a Reagan quote for my signature. I still use it in my email. It spells out in few words what I think is going wrong in our nation. It did not belittle anyone but stated a viewpoint. There was nothing wrong with it. If I say "You are a goat because you wear your hair blue," then that crosses the line. (And you blue-hairs out there, don't get touchy. I really want blue in my white hair but my job won't let me.)

Respect/diversity does not mean I value your opinion over my own. It means I value your right to be you. If you do not value my right to be me, then YOU are the one not being respectful.

If I make a comment and my words are misunderstood, then I have an obligation to explain myself more fully. I may apologize, but if I was not being offensive in the first place, that apology is a common courtesy, not a necessity. Afterwards it is your responsibility to accept my explanation, but not necessarily to agree with it.

But if you are angry just because I am who I am? Then that is YOUR problem, not mine! I guess I'm pretty thick skinned, but often when I am insulted (and I am at least once a month on FB by a friend's offspring) I tell the offending person, "Your comment says more about you than it does me." (Let me tell you, that gets to a person wanting to get an argument!)

 

[CaraBou]

I love soap. Simple, real, soap. Thank you.

 

[lsg]

I love your soap bands.

 

[Lindy]

Beautiful soap ~ I love the flower

 

[JustBeachy]

I've been busy lately, and haven't been spending much time around the computer, so I've been a bit absent. Thought I'd chime in again on this post though.

To be open minded, means exactly that. Open minded. Lee has a right to his opinion, so does Carabou. and for that matter, everyone else that's responded. In my opinion, problems arise when people start trying to explain their opinions.I would assume it's very rare for someone to read a response and say, "Wow, I've just changed my entire thought process on the subject". So why argue about it. Though I'll add, even the "arguments on this thread have been well behaved and handled in an adult manner.

I respect people that truly believe in what they believe, not just belief to conform to what others believe. People who don't try to convince others to change their beliefs, because it differs from what they believe. Again, if we don't lose track of common sense and common courtesy, a lot of life's problems and differences stand out for what they are. Little blips that truly mean next to nothing.

And thanks for not censoring the sig's. There's some of the best sig's ever on this site.

 

[lionprincess00]

I stand by what I said.



Willy warmers.


Who knew
:shock::think::shock:;-)

I wish I was witty enough to come up with a sig beachy, but alas I am not.